Alim Kheraj  0:00  
Episode Two: Tonic.

Anna K  0:03  
How do you live a good later life as an LGBT person, and that you can rely on the care and support and the environment being both safe and actually better than safe being actually affirming of who you are. And it was really about creating that provision because there was none in the UK.

Alim Kheraj  0:36  
Hello, and welcome to Queer Spaces: Behind the Scene. A podcast and photography series where we document contemporary LGBTQ_ spaces and analyse the ever shifting landscape of the UK's queer scene. I'm your host Alim Kheraj. I'm a freelance writer whose work is mainly about the intersection of queerness and popular culture. I'm also the author of Queer London: A Guide to LGBTQ+ London Past and Present.

Tim Boddy  1:02  
And I'm Tim Boddy, a photographer, artist and picture editor whose work generally centres on the LGBTQ+ community.

Alim Kheraj  1:09  
Each episode of Queer Spaces: Behind the Scene will feature in-depth conversations with a diverse range of voices behind some pivotal LGBTQ+ groups and spaces. Each episode will be complemented by original photography and portraiture by Tim, which captures the spirit of the community. 

In this episode, we have the immense privilege of speaking to Anna Kear, the CEO of Tonic Housing. Tonic is a community led not for profit organisation, focused on providing vibrant and inclusive urban LGBTQ+ affirming retirement communities. In 2021, they open the UK's first LGBTQ+ affirmative retirement housing. Tonic at Bankhouse is a retirement community comprising of 84 affordable apartments over 14 floors, located on Albert Embankment in the iconic area of Vauxhall Lamberth. Tonic owns 19 of these one and two bedroom apartments, with One Housing managing all the rented apartments and providing the personal care and support services on site. 

Tonic is focused on London for the first project as the capital has the largest older LGBTQ+ population in the UK, estimated to be 145,000 people. However, they are also working in other areas, such as in Manchester with the LGBT Foundation. 

It's one of the things that I think I've been thinking about recently is, you know, do queer spaces need to be in cities? You know, can you move out of cities into other spaces and make them queer? You know, just before we were recording, we were talking about leaving London and moving to Hastings and all these different things. And it's something I'm really interested in when considering the cost of living and things like that in London and gentrification, the closure of spaces? Do we exist outside of cities and metropolis and find new places to exist? What do you think?

Tim Boddy  3:06  
Yeah, it's such a massive question. And it's something that I feel like the LGBTQ+ community has been like, a little slow to realise. I feel like the conversations only been happening in like a greater depth in the last 5/10 years, but out of an absolute necessity, as Anna kind of talks about, obviously, in our podcast. And yeah, it feels like we're at something of a crossroads. Like, what does happen now? And I, I genuinely don't have an answer to that question. I feel like there needs to be - and there is kind of more of a shift away from London. Again, out of necessity and costs. Yeah. What do you think like this? It's really interesting, fertile...

Alim Kheraj  3:48  
Yeah. It's, it's something that I've thought a lot about, and have sort of thought, you know, why is London, this space where everyone comes? And, you know, thinks that that they can, you know, live queer lives openly? I mean, you can live openly in London, compared to some other places in the country. But it's quite, it's also very hard and difficult, and we don't have what we used to have in the city, which are these really tight, concentrated areas of community. Soho is kind of the last remaining aspect of that, and even that sort of is always under threat. 

Tim Boddy  4:28  
Yes, it's getting straighter by the day.

Alim Kheraj  4:31  
Everything's turning into a Pret. So if you think about community being something that's not as so abstract, and actually a physical space, it's interesting that in order to achieve that sort of physicality, you need to move away or move out and it was something. I thought about last summer when I went to visit a friend who lives in Hebden - near Hebden Bridge, which is this area that has this big concentration of lesbians. And it works because it's a small, close knit community.

Tim Boddy  5:06  
Yeah. Do you see things like Hebden Bridge and that kind of area popping up across the UK? And like a similar form?

Alim Kheraj  5:14  
Yeah I think you can. I think that's the future. Yeah, I could see that. You could have rather than pockets of London, you would have pockets outside of London.

Tim Boddy  5:25  
Yeah. Like the idea of the London gayborhood. Yeah, but being like many villages somewhere. Like Surrey, or Dorset? 

Alim Kheraj  5:33  
Yeah, exactly. Like I quite like that as an idea. 

Tim Boddy  5:36  
Yeah, me too. Yeah, I think it's probably, it's healthy. But it's, it's sad that this is a reason why it's happening. I guess just because of basically finance, essentially, that the stresses and the strains and... of living in the capital and all that that entails. But yeah, well, like, for example, that there's a new gay bar opening in Margate: CAMP. Which may have opened by the time this is out? I'm not sure. But yeah, you do see like that kind of move away from the city.

Alim Kheraj  6:06  
And I think physical community, in terms of being close to others, is really important for LGBTQ people, especially as you get older, because there is a less of a sort of familial safety net, as it were, you know, lots of queer people don't have children. They don't, you know, think about who looks after you. 

In the 70s and 80s. There were these squats in Brixton, and they were sort of... had this vision of creating this sort of, you could go there, and people would look after each other and help people do these sorts of things. And I think in these more, I think in these spaces outside of London, there's places outside of London, that could once again be an opportunity... could be an opportunity for that once again. And it also brings us quite nicely into the into our next guest. 

Today, I'm joined by Anna Kear, is that correct? Yes, correct. 

Anna K  7:09  
That is correct. 

Alim Kheraj  7:10  
I'm going to say that again. So I just wasn't sure I should have checked before

Anna K  7:14  
Anna Kear rhymes with queer [laughter]

Alim Kheraj  7:18  
Today I'm joined by Anna Kear, the CEO of Tonic - a community led not for profit organisation focused on creating vibrant and inclusive urban LGBT+ affirming retirement communities. Hi, Anna, how are you?

Anna K  7:32  
Hello, Alim. I'm good. Thank you.

Alim Kheraj  7:35  
I thought it would be fun. Firstly, for you to just tell us a little bit about yourself.

Anna K  7:40  
Okay, always the most difficult question, first of all,

Alim Kheraj  7:43  
We want the life story, give it to us. 

Anna K  7:44  
Okay, so I would say that I am a 54 year old woman, cisgender woman. My background is that I have worked in housing for over 30 years starting working in a homeless hostel when I was in my early 20s. So I kind of also self-define as a housing geek. And for me, this has been quite an interesting journey. I joined Tonic three years... just over three years ago. And it was the first time really, in my professional work life that it combined my personal work and my personal status, and my work life in one. So you find yourself sort of really being out 24/7 In terms of your work. Yeah.

Alim Kheraj  8:38  
I bet that's quite fun. Refreshing, or

Anna K  8:42  
It is, but it does take some getting used to actually. I... you know, I think when I took it on, I thought it would be a lot of fun that it'd be really comfortable position to be in. But actually, when you are doing it, you... you feel, because you're you're working on lots of different levels. So Tonic works in the LGBT sector. And in that that's really comfortable. But we also work in that in the housing sector, we work in the care sector, and we work in this very specialist area of retirement housing as well. So all of those different elements when you're engaging with different audiences, I find that - I find a lot of the time I ended up having to be a translator for a straight community.

Alim Kheraj  9:28  
Right okay, yes. I can imagine that then becomes frustrating rather than fun. For those who might not be familiar, who are listening, can you tell me about Tonic and what it's all about and how you got involved?

Anna K  9:44  
Well, you very kindly gave the explanation at the start. But essentially, Tonic is... well we use the firm, LGBT affirming retirement community. And that's really important in terms of a space where people's lives, histories and culture is actually celebrated. If I then explain about what a retirement community is, is that it is a place where people have their own apartment. So it's just like your own front door key. We have one and two bedroom apartments. It's very much optional, whether you choose to actually use the community spaces or not, but they are there for people. 

And then within Bankhouse, we actually have a bar and lounge, places where people can actually be meet up that's not in their own property, and actually just have informal get togethers. We had a look around earlier, and I was showing you the... the library book clubs, snug area that we're setting up, you could just go there for a cup of coffee informally, or you could actually be at a book club event put on. So it's very much about having those different spaces, and hence the term community is really important. Because it is, these are the people that make the community we are just providing the spaces, and actually the support and the facilitation for that.

Alim Kheraj  11:19  
It might seem like an obvious question. But why is there a need for specific housing for LGBTQ+ elders?

Anna K  11:31  
Well it really comes out of the demand and the stories from people about what they want. So this isn't an idea that we've just come up with out of the blue. Tonic was actually formed by its founder members from their own lived experience, about there not being anything suitable for them when they're in a situation where they needed housing with care. And obviously, people can buy in care services. But our founders members found that that experience was not a good one for them. They also found it very difficult to find accommodation that was fully wheelchair accessible. 

So these were really important factors that we thought actually, how do you live a good later life as an LGBT person, and that you can rely on the care and support and the environment being both safe, and actually better than safe being actually affirming of who you are. And it was really about creating that... that provision because there was none in the UK. This is backed up, for example, by the Building Safer Choices report that we did in 2020. We had over 600, LGBT, Londoners, all aged over 55 responding to that survey. And it was really stark, only 1% of respondents said that they would consider going into a general housing with care scheme. 

It was that strong as a message. So people would were either primarily - I think it was 56% of people wanted LGBT specific retirement offers, roundabout that 26% said that they'd go into a general scheme if it has an accreditation, if the staff etc. had all done training on LGBT awareness. But if it was just a general provider, and people hadn't had that, it was really considered not an option for people, they didn't feel safe. And a good example of that some of our first residents moving in, who've actually been looking for somewhere for some considerable time. And their needs are such that they do need wheelchair accessible accommodation, they do need the care and support. But when they've looked at other providers, they've basically said, we don't fit in there, a gay couple does not fit into a general retirement scheme, and we don't feel part of the community.

Alim Kheraj  14:06  
So yeah, so what... what are some of the issues and sort of gaps in general care when it comes to providing support for LGBTQ+ people?

Anna K  14:17  
It's mostly around training and awareness. And this is... this is changing. So you've got some LGBT specific providers in London. There's there's one company called Alternative Care. That is actually also on Tonic's community panel so involved in informing us. So people can actually find specific provision out there. There's also Opening Doors (who) do training and accreditation actually for care providers. So things are changing gradually, but it is quite slow in terms of those other options.

Alim Kheraj  15:00  
And then I guess there's all there's the difficulty too of there just not being enough providers for everyone as well, which is a general wider care issue?

Anna K  15:09  
Absolutely. I mean, it is very complex. And you might have seen this sort of recent news headlines in terms of changes to social care that are being proposed. But in essence, there are... there are different systems and the finances behind those care provisions are quite complicated. We're really pleased that at Bankhouse this is actually affordable housing provision. And within the blocks, there is affordable rented housing that comes with a care package from Lambeth Council. The Tonic occupiers are provisionally shared ownership, we're any legally allowed to do shared ownership at the moment, but our occupiers can opt to actually use that care provision on site as well.

Alim Kheraj  15:55  
Why do you think historically that LGBTQ+ people have been overlooked when it comes to retirement housing?

Anna K  16:02  
I really liked this question, because I think it's a really important one, actually. From... lots of people who've been involved in Tonic, have told me some of the history of this, including the setting up of Polari Housing Association, back in 1994. They were on a very similar track to Tonic, and they actually registered with what was then the Housing Corporation, so the government body to set up as a housing association, similar to Tonic is now.

And they actually found it really, really difficult to do that. And they took a decision that they were actually going to work with existing housing providers to try and improve the offer. And I think that was a very honourable thing to do. But I think it was hugely problematic in terms of getting traction with those other providers and getting them to take it seriously. I think the reason it was so difficult for them to actually be a provider themselves, is because we were in Section 28 years. And when I look at the history, you know, I mentioned earlier that I was a housing geek, when, you know, my housing history is that, you know, there have been really good exemplars of housing with care, housing for elders, for different communities. 

I've been involved in schemes for Chinese elders, for example. There's a recognition that in later life, people want to be with people that they've had similar life experiences to, can share conversations, can share cultural identities, food, different things. And so lots of small housing associations were actually established in those years in the kind of late 80s/90s period of time, they were supported to do so. And I think, Polari couldn't do that, because it was a moment in time when you could not access public funding to support LGBT issues. So that has been part of our discussion with the GLA as to why Tonic is needed now and why it hasn't happened previously. It's almost like a need to kind of rectify the injustices that that provision wasn't made available in 1994, when Polari tried to do that.

Alim Kheraj  18:26  
It's amazing, when I was doing the research my book, yeah, looking at the initiatives that had started. And then as soon as Section 28 came, everything crumbled. And there were some amazing things going on. There was a black lesbian group in Camden. And obviously, there was the previous LGB... Well, the Gay and Lesbian Community Centre that had its own issues as well, I don't know if you're familiar with what happened with that. But yeah, it's quite incredible to see actually the kind of tangible effect that Section 28 really had.

Anna K  19:03  
Absolutely, I mean, there's, you know, it's always been an area of interest to me, and I'm very much in a learning journey to find out more and a lot of it is anecdotal. And I'm interested in collecting this information together. There were lots of informal communities, lots of squatting and things like that of people, you know, living in community and this history of actually shared spaces. 

So I think, you know, it's feels quite an honour to be taking forward some of that, but in a different context, because obviously here when we're talking about housing for older people, as they become frail, the buildings have to be suitable. I mentioned wheelchair accessibility being absolutely key that people can be accessible in their own apartments but also to use the community spaces. So from, you know, ground floor level entrance, the whole building is wheelchair accessible, but also the provision of care and support on site is a different elements again. But I think we will hopefully carry forward some of that history. And I think it certainly would be a really a good thing. And on my agenda of what I'd like to Tonic to look at in future is actually pulling together and collating some of thathistory?

Alim Kheraj  20:22  
Yeah. Because there's all the Railton Road stuff and all of that, which was sort of amazing, but then, you know, obviously, it had its issues too. I don't think that would have been wheelchair accessible.

Anna K  20:35  
I doubt it would have been! But I think... I mean, you mentioned before about, you know, my background. So before I did Tonic, I was involved in the community led housing movement, so I was folding, cohousing and cooperatives. So I do have a bit of a passion for that, that housing as well. And we very much want to take the best of that community living forward in Tonic, but actually take some of the burden and the strain from people that they don't have to completely self organise. Because actually, as you get older, if you have medical issues, you can't necessarily do everything. So we're kind of hopefully, you know, an organisation that facilitates and enables people to live in that way and have the benefits of the community living without necessarily all of the responsibility.

Alim Kheraj  21:26  
This was not my list, but I've just come up with one. Where do you think that Tonic sits in a general shift when it comes to approaches to housing in this country? Do you think that there is a shift in how people are viewing housing and... and what role it plays?

Anna K  21:43  
I very much hope so. I very much hope that... we're very clear about what our remit is and what we're about. But I think also, I hope it has a wider impact. And that's actually about looking at diversity in housing. You know, there is this thing with, you know, particularly ageing, that it's a bit like a one size fits all, people assume the only thing that you have in common is your age, and therefore you're all the same, which is crazy. And the other thing is that within retirement housing, other than being defined by age, you're purely defined on your income. And we've actually found the complete opposite in terms of that, that people are saying to us. It's it's not an issue for us, you know, in terms of the... living together, living in a mixed bloc of ownership, and rented etc. We want to live in a place with our community, that's the most important driver. 

So I think there are some myths to be busted, and challenge the general provision. And I think also, there is this element of... challenging also, the community led housing sector, which can in itself be quite purist - as to you know, unless it's a pure form of cohousing or a pure form of cooperative, then it isn't valid. And I felt that that's actually can be quite... it can exclude people, as I've mentioned before, about if you do have health issues and reasons that you can't do the full version of it, why can't we have hybrid versions? The best of both worlds?

Alim Kheraj  23:26  
Yes so in 2020, you mentioned it before that you worked with Stonewall Housing and Opening Doors London on the Building Safe Choices report. What were some of the key discoveries you learned from that research?

Anna K  23:40  
I think the first point was about why we did the research actually, was because we found that local authorities don't collect this information. So you know, that's part of the problem is that they don't even recognise there's an issue of meeting the needs of older LGBT people, how can they start to actually commission and provide for it? So we thought we had to take it right back to the start. And we managed to persuade the Greater London Authority, and we got a match funding from Commonweal housing to actually do that research ourselves. 

And I think it was really important that we did that collectively with the three charitable organisations, because it created a platform of trust, that when older LGBT people were talking to us and providing that information, we were trusted organisations to, you know, be honest about their situations. We actually piloted the work as well. So this was pre lockdown in Opening Doors' cafe that they had on their Friday morning. So actually, older LGBT people were involved in creating the survey with us, so they helped us ask what were the questions that needed to be asked. 

Because right back... in terms of co-production. So in terms of then the answers that came out of it, there were three main points that we've highlighted in the report that we thought were the primary messages that came out of the report. So the first one was that older LGBT wanted, people wanted housing care and support services that are safe. And they wanted those services to recognise and respect their lives histories, and treat them with dignity and respect. And I mentioned before that then leading to the fact that people wanted either LGBT specialist retirement housing or housing with care, or that they wanted that to be accredited. 

And the other point was this, this was a survey specifically done in London. So we were clear, it has geographic remit. And we were also doing some of that myth busting that people actually said to us, the vast majority of people wanted to stay in London, most people think that older people when they retire, want to move away. And that was not true. And we've always said, you know, this supports the voices of what people are telling us and listening to people. But it does support that that background information that people have moved to London as a beacon city, a place to find safety and community and be out as an LGBT person. And that's actually supported right through until later life as well. So that was a really interesting element of it. 

The other two points that people drew out, particularly was that people wanted policymakers and providers to recognise these diversities and differences, people did not want that one size kind of fits all approach, and to recognise the different needs that older LGBT people have, which, you know, generally just goes... goes invisible, or is considered invisible by by providers. And then people also wanted more advice and support around their housing options and associated services. We found that people really were not planning for their retirement because they didn't know what was out there. And actually, we know there is very... there isn't much out there. And that makes it quite difficult to plan. 

So we actually... that, that came out quite strongly in terms of what people were asking for. And we followed that up in terms of our recommendations. And what we decided to do was actually split that out, of which elements of this that Opening Doors was going to take forward, Stonewall Housing was going to take forward, and Tonic was going to take forward. So Stonewall Housing now has managed to get funding for this to provide housing advice service specifically for older LGBT people. Opening Doors are developing their services in terms of helping people plan for retirement. And obviously Tonic has focused on the provision of the first retirement community.

Alim Kheraj  28:22  
We'd love to hear from you. Tweet us at @queerspacesUK, message us on Instagram at queerspacesUK, or email us at tim@queerspaces.uk. And let us know about your favourite queer spaces, how you feel about the evolution of the LGBTQ+ seen. And don't forget to rate, leave a review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps us. 

So why do you think it's important for LGBTQ+ organisations to work together? This might be an obvious question!

Anna K  28:56  
I think it's absolutely essential. I mean, I mentioned before that I come very much from a collaborative background, you know, working in community housing is... you need to collaborate. And you also need to be respectful in that space as well. So when I started with Tonic, I went round and met people from various different LGBT organisations, found out where they were at, what they were doing, and sort of where Tonic fitted into that space. But then also where we could work with others collectively. And that often it's been explained to me that it can be can be tensions, because there's limited funding out there and everyone's competing for the funding, same funding. 

So I thought, well, actually, if this piece of work needs doing, why don't we work together on it, and then it's a kind of shared approach, and in that working together on the research report, for example, we're learning more about each other as we're doing the work. So it makes a lot of sense, and it makes a lot of sense in terms of then the practicalities of taking that research forward. And it doesn't just sit on the shelf, it actually translates into the next stage of work and... and effects, the change.

Alim Kheraj  30:14  
Loneliness and isolation is something that affects all elderly people. However, I think from in the report, it was quite... mentioned that was quite prevalent amongst LGBTQ+ people. Many...and I think it was over half lived alone. Why do you think this demographic is particularly at risk of loneliness?

Anna K  30:35  
So I think, again, it is... a lot of it is down to history. And I think it is sort of taking some time to reflect on that, that this is, this is different generations and different histories. History is where, you know, the criminalization of being gay, histories of conversion therapy, histories of not being allowed to have children, actually. Or if you actually came out as a lesbian, you were not allowed to keep your children, if you had them from a former marriage. I mean, really horrific things, which, you know, we do know about, but you know, we don't necessarily carry with us in our everyday lives as our elders do, because that was their experience. 

And you're right, in terms of the... of the 624 responses, we had to the survey, we had 56% live on their own, 82% did not have any children. And this is quite an important element, both in terms of loneliness, and isolation. But also in terms of navigating the care system; the care system very much relies on people's families, being their advocates, and helping them navigate the system. If you don't have that, you can be even more lonely and isolated by that situation. 

So that's where we think roles... organisations such as Tonic, but also Stonewall Housing and their advice, also Opening Doors in terms of what they do with their member support services. Working together, people can contact us. And if if the answer is, it's not something that Tonic provides, we can actually then help people get in contact with the other organisations that can provide that. And that's where we very much see that and I hope it doesn't sound too cheesy to say, but I really take on this role and thinking, you know, that, that we are family, we are that kind of support network that that's not there otherwise, and we're very human in our approach, you know, we're not a computer. And when somebody phones us, we take the time to get to know them and understand them a follow up, and, and they're not left in a gap of not fitting something we make sure we look out for people.

Alim Kheraj  32:59  
It's really interesting, because during the height of the AIDS crisis, you know, this was how community organisation happened. You know, it was a lot of different groups, and they would come together and this service provide this and this. And then I did an interview last year with someone whose name I can't remember. But yeah, I did an interview last year and someone... he's sort of spent his whole life doing health advocacy and health activism. And he said that, once the health providers took over, they were like, well, "we don't need you anymore for the to the community because we don't need to... you know, you've thanks for what you did." 

And actually what happened as a result was that the provision of care declined, because it wasn't specific, it wasn't holistic, it didn't have a person centred approach. And that kind of sounds like what Tonic, Stonewall Housing, and Opening Doors sort of doing: creating a person-led structure rather than something that's, as you say, overarching,

Anna K  34:03  
Very much so. And I think it's so important because too often people fall through the cracks. And, as I say, if they don't have that support, then you know, who is looking out for them. And for us, that's very much the follow through. So, you know, when I came into Tonic, I mean, I'm generally not a great fan of branding, but, you know, we thought it was important to be clear and get our messaging out. And we worked with our board and with our community panel on what were our key messages, and we came up with this line: "This is how we live our lives out." And it was a play on words because, you know, actually moving in with Tonic, we're here for you to live the rest of your lives out with us. We are there for whatever occurs in the latter part of people's lives.

Alim Kheraj  34:58  
What was the process like of getting Tonic from a concept and an idea to sort of, to what we're sitting in right now, this being a permanent space?

Anna K  35:10  
Painful [laughter]. Painful, but determined. So I think when I... I was really clear, when I took on this role that it was, it was a gift. It was an honour of an opportunity to use all of my 30 years of housing experience, and to use that actually, for my community. So what I did was actually work with our board and our community panel. And our board were very, very honest, that, you know, that they've said recently... you know, they were a board, they were a board of amateurs, it was their lived experience. So they did as much as they could to get Tonic to where it was they were they really good at fundraising, they got the charitable trusts and foundations to invest in Tonic and actually enabled them to employ a chief executive. And they were out and about raising the profile of the issues. So they did a phenomenal amount. 

But they were struggling at the point of then making that vision a reality, and doing that point. And that's where I came in to work with them on it. And it really is a more than full time job in terms of turning that around. And I worked with them and said, you know, the, the big issue here is that you... that the vision is something quite complex in terms of housing terms; you've got to... you're looking at providing individual apartments, plus community spaces, plus care and support provisioning, you have got to have an operational business model that is viable and supports that. And you actually have to have enough properties. Generally, we're talking in the region of at least 50 properties, up to kind of 80, to cover the costs of the community space. 

So you know, and I remember saying this to the board in London we're talking about 50 million pounds, to eventually make that happen. And to raise 50 million pounds starting from scratch with nothing, with no asset base, no track record. I don't like to use the word impossible. But it was close to that. So we've got to find a pragmatic business solution to this because I think the vision is absolutely right. But the way that we achieve it, we might have to take some sort of baby steps along the way to get there. And so we came up with a partnership model and said "Actually, we want to work with existing housing providers in a way that we can achieve this", but with a really clear remit that we needed to produce a community effort in perpetuity. We couldn't just be a service provider in somebody else's building, because then we couldn't honour our promise to enable people to live their lives out. And we can't do that if you don't actually have ownership. 

So I talked to an awful lot of people. And stood up a lot of times at lots of different events, talking about Tonic talking about what we were looking for, and did work with some of the main G 15 housing providers. And it was actually One Housing that came to us and said "I have listened to what you've said, I think we've got something that would work." And that was Bankhouse. And that was back in believe it or not December 2018.

And I came here in January 2019. I think it was for Burns' Night, they were celebrating. And I just had that feeling when I walked into the building and went "Oh yes, I think it might be!" and it was... it was that gut reaction of right thing in the right place, etc. And I had this shopping list with me. It was in my head I wasn't written down. But it was the things that our community panel had said were absolutely essential for it working for Tonic and meeting people's needs. 

And that the primary ones were you know, good social space, is fully wheelchair accessible, the right location where people felt safe, they felt part of the community that's where they wanted to be, as well as you know, one and two bedroom apartments. Outside spaces. We have a roof terrace and a terrace on the first floor here. So it was quite a long shopping list. I was literally in my head going "Tick, tick, tick. Wow! Right this is this is really good. This meets a lot of the criteria." And I've said, you know, if we had 50 million pounds plus, this is very similar to what we would have built ourselves.

Alim Kheraj  40:13  
Yeah, I mean, it's such an incredible location. For those people that don't know, it's just by Vauxhall which is where... which is a sort of historic gay area. Where Royal Vauxhall Tavern is, and I'm sure some of the residents will end up going to some of the clubs and stuff around here as well.

Anna K  40:32  
Very much. So we, we already have an invitation and friendship developed with Above the Stag Theatre. Because, again, that's mostly wheelchair accessible as well, in terms of the building, and yeah, everyone wants to, you know, do things for the residents, which is great.

Alim Kheraj  40:49  
That's great. So yeah, why was it important that Tonic remain community later, not for profit?

Anna K  40:57  
I think there... when we talked earlier, we talked about the history of some of the informal housing schemes, the squats, and maybe even some of the formal ones. So there was Strutton Housing that was set-up for people with AIDS in the 80s. And that's now been subsumed into another housing association. And I think I was really clear in this, and the board were, that we we're putting so much effort into actually creating this, it had to be there for the long term. It's not just for the first people that move in.

We've actually purchased 125 year leases on the apartments in this building. So it will be here for future older people as well to benefit from. And the community-lead bit is twofold really in that it's... it's our residents that will actually shape what the LGBT affirming offer is, you know, and that will evolve over time. So that's the twofold bit for me is people say "Oh, it will be needed in the future." And I was like, we have the perfect opportunity to evolve, because it'll evolve with the community and people that live here. And if they want to do things a bit differently, it can change with them.

Alim Kheraj  42:26  
That's great. 

Anna K  42:27  
Did I answer your question? 

Alim Kheraj  42:29  
Yes.

You know, I think there's this sort of disconnect in the queer community between people of a certain age group and people of another age group; the wider scene doesn't cater for people over a certain age. I was sort of interested in, you know, why you think that there is this sort of generational divide between young and older LGBTQ+ people?

Unknown Speaker  43:00  
I think it is about experience. I mean, I have been quite shocked. And this is even recently, as recent as last week, actually, and talking to people explaining what we're we're doing, with with younger LGBTQ people. And they just haven't understood it, they've... they've kind of... their experience is their experience of the moment, and haven't necessarily thought about what the experience is like for elders. So I think that is some of the divide? 

Anna K  43:37  
And it is some of the things that we want to be doing in the years ahead. So, for example, with a volunteering programme we very much see that this could be a two way relationship. So you know, younger people can come in here and support, you know, events and activities. But equally, they can learn a lot from our elders, they can learn a lot of the history, and maybe it helps put some of their things in perspective as well. In terms of the spaces as a 50 - young, 54 year old - myself: you get tired! I don't stay out as late as I used to. My hearing's, completely knackered because I spent too many times in, in clubs where the sound systems just, you know, ruined your hearing. 

So it is a different experience. And we, you know, as we get older, we maybe want different kinds of spaces, and different ways of kind of interacting, that isn't only the pubs and clubs, so they don't mind doing that sometimes, but perhaps not in the same amount that you did when you were younger.

Alim Kheraj  44:46  
I guess the issue is, is that there aren't those provisions really, I mean; part of the series that we're looking at some of the spaces that are coming up, you know, there's a sober space in Shoredithc that's just opened. We've got, as we mentioned at the beginning the LGBTQ+ Community Centre. But aside from that, you know, the culture is very bar and club led. And so something like Tonic, although it's not a widely accessible space for anyone off the street and kind of come into, it does signal this sort of mental shift in kind of the approaches to spaces for queer people.

Anna K  45:30  
Yeah, so actually part of Tonic's original - and our founders original - vision was that actually to create a community space that could be used by the wider LGBTQ community as well. So you'd have a residential space and a wider social space. Obviously, Tonic at Bankhouse is a kind of hybrid version of that. And we've had to now be working within restrictions for the pandemic, thinking about resident's safety when you've got vulnerable people living here with with care needs. So we've had to adapt to that a little bit. 

In terms of the future, though, you know, we don't intend this to be the only Tonic, we intend to do other schemes. And that original vision is very much still there. So we would like to create a space where actually, it could be more of a community centre where, you know, you could, you could just pop in for coffee in the morning and a chat and just that kind of space, rather than it's just being the pubs and clubs version.

Alim Kheraj  46:40  
Yeah, cuz I think that is missing a little bit. I mean, people go on and on about the discourse around having a queer cafe, and you know, what that really means and whether we need such a thing, but an alternative space... you can never have too much alternative space can you?

Anna K  46:58  
And there's different, you know, London is very diverse. Well there are things around, but it's a big place. So actually having different... different spaces throughout London would be fantastic.

Alim Kheraj  47:11  
But also, I would like to see nightlife become more accessible for people of all different backgrounds and age groups. And just because someone's, you know, in their 60s, doesn't mean that they don't want to go clubbing. And... in fact, I've been to, you know, I've been out to clubs with people in their 60s. And, you know, the problem is London, obviously, has this accessibility issue where, you know, things aren't wheelchair accessible, or there are steps that people wouldn't manage to get down or, you know, what have you. So, yeah, I sort of hope that we are in a sea change a little bit that things are kind of going to this more open place.

Anna K  47:53  
Yeah, hopefully, and hopefully, you know, people can see that there is a demand for it, and an interest in it. And that, you know, it's a part of the visibility issue, isn't it? Because a lot of people have said, there isn't a problem, because we can't see it. It's not because there isn't a problem. It's just you can't see it.

Alim Kheraj  48:15  
And actually, I think it'd be really interesting to see how residents when Tonic is whenever it's full, you know, how residents engage with one another and the things that they do and the things that they requesting, because they're just... has there been anything like that before where a community of elder LGBTQ+ people have lived together and shaped their needs for themselves?

Anna K  48:43  
The only examples are in other countries, particularly in the States, where I had the, you know, I was really lucky to go and visit in 2019. So that's, that really showed me the potential of what what can be achieved. And I liken it here, when we had our launch events when Sadiq Khan came and opened Tonic at Bankhouse. The first group of our residents actually came along to that, they met him, and then they all went with us to Above the Stag afterwards. And they were all sat around chatting together planning what they were going to be doing. And that, you know, that that did involve a gardening club. You know, I've mentioned the book club ideas. So yeah, I think it's... I think it's really interesting in this space to actually say, "What are they going to... what they're gonna create, what they're gonna make?" Because it's, it's completely within... within their gift and for us then to support them to achieve that.

Alim Kheraj  49:49  
Yeah, so I guess I mean, that leads kind of quite nicely, I guess, to the sort of end. So what does the future hold for Tonic?

Anna K  49:58  
Well, I hope that we will not only do more schemes in London, but also in other cities in the UK. What I'm working on at the moment is - it sounds very dull and geeky, again, is to on our application for Tonic to become a registered provider of social housing. Now, this is really important, you can be a housing association, but in order to provide affordable rented accommodation and social rented accommodation, you have to be a registered provider, you have to be regulated. And it's a bit of a chicken and egg one, because first of all, you have to have property before you can even register. So we had to do one thing at a time. 

But I'm now doing that, going through the registration process, which is quite lengthy, we probably won't know the outcome until about the summer. But that's, that's a big ambition. Because that's, you know, that means that then we will be able to do lots of different tenures, because I think the Tonic offer is really clear. And then it's really about... it needs to meet a wide variety of needs and different people's circumstances. So that income's not a barrier to being able to be part of it.

Alim Kheraj  51:15  
Great. Well, thank you so much for joining us. That was really great. I really appreciate it.

Anna K  51:20  
That's okay, thank you. It's lovely to chat to you.

Alim Kheraj  51:23  
Yes. Thanks, Anna. Sometimes I clap! [woo]

To find out more about Tonic, visit their website at Tonichousing.org.uk or find them on social media at @Tonichousing. You can also read a fabulous piece in the eye by journalist Patrick Strudwick, where he meets the first two residents. 

Queer Spaces: Behind the Scene was born out of a desire to document the importance that queer spaces have to LGBTQ+ people. Each episode is complemented by original photography and portraiture by Tim Boddy. You can find these pictures on queerspaces.uk or on Twitter and Instagram @queerspacesUK. Find out more by subscribing to our newsletter. Queer Spaces is produced, written and edited by Tim Boddy, and hosted and written by me Alim Kheraj. The podcast is supported through a MEAD fellowship awarded by the University of Arts London.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai