Alim Kheraj 0:00 Episode for the London LGBTQ+ Community Centre. You know, Megan 0:05 We get people coming in here, who, when they walked through the door two or three months ago, couldn't even speak, because they were too scared to talk. I don't know what's happened in that person's life or those people's lives. And as they've stayed, and they've come, and they can just sit and relax, they've made friends or had conversations, and that's empowering them. And then that makes me feel empowered because I'm supporting them and contributing to it. But that's why grassroots organising is happening. I don't think it's ever gone away. I don't think it's ever gone away. I just think we're more determined. Alim Kheraj 0:50 Hello, and welcome to Queer Spaces: Behind She scene, a podcast and photography series where we document contemporary LGBTQ+ spaces and analyse the ever shifting landscape of the UK is queer scene. I'm your host Alim Kheraj. I'm a freelance writer whose work is mainly about the intersection of queerness and popular culture. I'm also the author of Queer London: A guide to LGBTQ+ London past and present. Tim Boddy 1:16 And I'm Tim Boddy, a photographer, artist and picture editor whose work generally centres on the LGBTQ+ community. Alim Kheraj 1:23 Each episode of Queer Spaces: Behind the Scene will feature in-depth conversations with a diverse range of voices behind some pivotal LGBTQ+ groups and spaces. Each episode will be complemented by original photography and portraiture by Tim, which captures the spirit of the community. Alim Kheraj 1:43 Joining us in this episode are Sarah Moore and Megan Key from the London LGBTQ+ Community Centre, run by and for LGBTQ+ people. It is a safe, sober, intersectional Community Centre and cafe, where all LGBTQ+ people are welcomed, supported, can build connections and flourish. Founded in 2017, a successful fundraising initiative in 2018 saw them raise 100,000 pounds. In 2021, they opened a pop-up centre right in the heart of London, which is where we met with Sarah and Megan to talk more about the centre, its journey and future, and issues affecting LGBTQ+ people in the UK. Alim Kheraj 2:26 I can do it... this is what Britney feels like when she goes to the studio. Tim Boddy 2:30 Okay we're rolling. Were you part of the... Tim Boddy 2:34 No, I wasn't part of it... Tim Boddy 2:35 ...of the discourse in 2017 or, Alim Kheraj 2:37 No, What... what happened was I was... Yeah, I was asked by Timeout magazine to write a piece about the LGBTQ+ Community Centre in London. They had had a fundraising campaign going - a Crowdfunder going. But they had sort of stalled. They had got to a point... They were you know, and it looked like they weren't going to make the goal. Tim Boddy 2:37 Yeah, I do remember this. Yeah. Alim Kheraj 2:37 And I think there was... it was really close to the wire. And I wrote this piece for Timeout. And it went out, you know, and they all very generously gave their time and spoke to me. And we took pictures of them. And it was it was a really great opportunity. And when the piece came out in Timeout, I think it sort of helped get what was a very grassroots initiative - You know, and I think only a fairly small number of people are aware of it - sort of a bit more public, maybe more public. Tim Boddy 3:36 Yeah. Alim Kheraj 3:36 And as a result of that, a certain Matthew Healy from the pop band The 1975, got in touch with a friend of mine. And I connected them together. And so I... Tim Boddy 3:52 I did not know this detail Alim Alim Kheraj 3:54 Well, yeah. So it was... it was my friend, who he messaged and I, all I did was play like, swap the information. I just gave one person one person's phone number, and the other person the other person's phone number and that was there. Tim Boddy 4:09 Yeah. But without that happening... Alim Kheraj 4:11 And he donated a considerable sum. But actually, even without his donation, I think they reached the goal. Tim Boddy 4:20 Okay. Yeah Alim Kheraj 4:20 that time. So it was quite a... obviously, I'm not saying that I was responsible. But I like to think that I contributed a little bit to helping them reach their goal. Tim Boddy 4:32 Yeah, absolutely. I did a retweet. My 20 followers will be thrilled. But yeah, it did... I do remember that inparticular the two weeks before... because they had the deadline for the goal to reach this 100k I believe it was? Alim Kheraj 4:48 I think it was even less than that. I think the initial goal was 25 or 50. And then they extended... and then once money started coming in, Tim Boddy 4:57 Pushing up that... Alim Kheraj 4:57 Yeah, they pushed up the end goal. Tim Boddy 5:00 Yeah. But yeah, you could almost... you could really feel like just the huge push by the entire community to try and like yeah, like get this figure up and up and up and reach these various targets and goals, which is yeah, great to see. And you are seeing that like a lot more with various other queer initiatives or community groups, or whatever it may be. Alim Kheraj 5:21 It was something that during COVID was really amazing to see was a lot of spaces... really important venues like the Royal Vauxhall Tavern, and Central Station, and even Open Barbers, were all in need of help. And they started crowd funders and the community really rallied. Dalston Superstore did a Crowdfunder for their performers, and bar staff and all those sorts of things. And people really showed up. Tim Boddy 5:53 Yeah, they really did. Yeah, people open their wallets, opened their hearts. It was... Alim Kheraj 5:57 It's really impressive. Obviously, there should be support from other avenues. Tim Boddy 6:05 In an absolute ideal world or in a normal world. It would be great to... Yes. See funding from local authorities and government. Alim Kheraj 6:13 But it was nice to see people show up. Yeah, for the community. Tim Boddy 6:20 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The pink pound really kind of being spent in the correct places. Alim Kheraj 6:25 Yeah, exactly. And, yeah, as you say, not being spent on sort of capitalist garbage, but actually on these grassroots community led non for profit organisations. Tim Boddy 6:36 Yeah. Yeah. It'd be interesting to see over the next five or 10 years, as there seems to be even greater, you know, cost of living standards, and just less money full stop; Like how sustainable this will be. Will we eventually get to a point where, you know, you get kind of more government funding, which doesn't seem like that's that likely? Yeah. Just yeah, it'd be interesting to see where we are in a decade with all of this. Alim Kheraj 7:00 Well, one of the things I was talking to a mutual friend of ours about (Tom) was... Tim Boddy 7:07 Love her. Alim Kheraj 7:08 ...An icon. Was the line between working with corporations and being entirely independent, and how to exist in a space where you're trying to be a community not for profit organisation, in a society that doesn't particularly value that or allow financially for that to occur. And the sort of moral/ethical conversation, which is something I think we actually spoke to Sarah and Megan about, is this kind of conversation about taking corporate donors, taking corporate sponsorship, and all of that sort of stuff. Yeah. And I was sort of thinking, you know, obviously, in an ideal world, you wouldn't have to, but we don't live in an ideal world. Tim Boddy 8:02 We certainly do not, no. We live in a Conservative party, awful capitalist nightmare. But yeah... I guess, it's up for individual organisations and collectives to decide. But, yeah, that seems like there needs to be a degree of flexibility. And each community group will have their own standards to adhere by. Alim Kheraj 8:21 Yeah, exactly. Tim Boddy 8:22 The kind of ongoing dialogues. And yeah, like you say, it does come up in this episode. And yeah, is it okay taking corporate money, if they're not mentioned at all, like in any kind of literature? Yeah. Where, where are the lines drawn? Yeah, essentially. Alim Kheraj 8:38 Sarah and Megan spoke very well about that. Tim Boddy 8:41 Yes, very eloquently, more so than I'm doing right now. Alim Kheraj 8:45 And that brings us to our next guest. Alim Kheraj 8:52 Today, we're at the LGBTQ Community Centre in London. We're joined by Sarah and Megan. Hi, guys. Hi. How are you? Sarah 9:02 Yeah, not bad. Thanks. How are you doing? Alim Kheraj 9:04 Yeah, good. Thank you. Megan 9:05 I'm good. Alim Kheraj 9:05 So I thought first of all, it would be fun. If you could like both introduce yourselves. Like, tell us a little bit about yourself. Sarah? Sarah 9:13 Sure. Yeah. Hi. So I'm Sarah, my pronouns are she/her. I am one of the I guess... I never really know how to answer that. When it comes to the centre, yeah, I guess like co founder, currently director and, you know, part of the operational team as well. And I've been involved in the project right from the very beginning. Yeah, I guess that's it. Megan 9:37 Yeah. And I'm Megan, my pronouns are she/her. So I've been an activist, particularly around trans experiences for over 10 years now. I transitioned about 12 or 13 years ago. I'm an out, visible, proud trans woman. And I've worked with a range of charities, locally and nationally, such as Stonewall, Gendered Intelligence, All About Trans Birmingham LGBT, Gyres (?), a whole host of different charities around all kinds of trans issues really. And I'm a Brummie, you can tell that from my accent, no getting away from that. Megan 10:19 And I met Sarah around probably six or seven years ago now. I was a speaker at Stonewall conference, and Sarah was working there doing the comms. And we did a video interview. Sarah 10:30 And that's when I fell in love with her. Megan 10:34 So, so yeah... and we kept in touch a little bit. And I could see on social media that Sarah was part of a team raising money for the Community Centre. And I thought this was interesting, because I could see she had a lot of passion. And then when I moved to London four years ago, I was looking for LGBT causes to get involved with to make new friends really, London friends. And because I'm just a passionate activist, I think I will be till the... till the day I leave the planet. And I saw that they weren't getting too far after they raised the money. And because in my day job I'm a strategic manager in the civil service in prisons and probations, I wanted to get involved and help out because I really believe in what Sarah has been doing. Megan 11:19 And really I'm getting a bit older now. And I see Sarah and the other trustees, really as the future of LGBTQ activism. Because at the moment, there's a lot of transphobic rhetoric in the UK media, driven by politics, and, and it takes a toll on people like me, you know, I'm the only trans trustee. And it's quite hard at the moment in the UK. And so I need to take a step back in the coming years. And it's people like Sarah, that I think are gonna smash it for us. That's why I'm here. Alim Kheraj 11:57 Great. For those that might not have any understanding about where we're sat right now; we're in a, in a wooden box, but it's inside the Community Centre. Can you just sort of tell us a little bit about what the Community Centre is exactly what it is you offer? Sarah 12:14 Course, Yeah. So the Community Centre at the moment is in a pop-up in its current form. We started the project in 2016... 2017? It's a long time ago now it's all blurring into one. Where we... a bunch of us sort of knocked heads and kind of had this vision for a place that was, you know, intersectional, sober, you can just, you know, peruse, you don't have to be a member, it doesn't revolve around nightlife or drinking or drugs. And it's not tied to any particular service provision - a space where the community can just come and just chill like a, like a nice living room that people can just relax in. Sarah 12:54 And we knew that we wanted it to be kind of based off of the real need from the community, and not just based off, like, the hunch of a bunch of people who just thought that they might know what people might like. So over the years, we've been doing various research projects into the need, the want, for what the centre has to offer, what it should offer. And then when COVID hit we really wanted to laser focus, you know. We've been... we've been working towards a permanent space, which, you know, spaces in London are like gold dust, they're incredibly hard to find, particularly ones that a community grassroots project can can afford. Sarah 13:33 And when COVID hit... yeah, we really knew that we needed to provide a space that was kind of immediate, you know. We can't... the community cannot wait for a permanent space, no matter how long, you know, how many years in the future it might be. So we, we did everything we could to open a space more quickly. And that's where we are now. So the pop-up Centre is a proof of concept. It's our kind of micro version of what the permanent centre could be, and hopefully will be (not hopefully) it WILL be. Sarah 14:04 And at the moment we work with... we're open sort of Wednesday to Sunday, 11 to 8. We would love to be open longer. But you know, we're part of a residential complex. And we have to honour you know, the residents upstairs and their wishes as well. We work with a number of absolutely amazing charities and groups who offer LGBTQ+ specific service provision. So that ranges from mental health support to sexual health support. We have a load of really holistic, really super fun, sober events, film screenings, book clubs, places where people can come and make friends. And there's no pressure and everything is either free or super affordable. We have various pay-it-forward schemes and opportunities for those in the community to pay more, or to help fund somebody in the community who isn't able to pay at that moment. So yeah, that's kind of it really in a nutshell, in a wooden box! Alim Kheraj 14:59 In a wooden box, yes! You mentioned, you know, there was a group of you got together and butted heads, I think it was butted heads? That's not right. Megan 15:11 That's fine. We can... put heads together Sarah 15:13 Locked heads. Alim Kheraj 15:14 Locked heads! Sarah 15:15 It's all the same. Alim Kheraj 15:17 And that was in 2017? How did you ensure that the space was representative of all the different aspects of the queer community, and that it was intersectional. Sarah 15:28 That's something that we we knew that we needed to nail down right from the very beginning. And I think, in the first few months of the project, we held open meetings around London that were attended... there was probably about 150 to 200 people at each meeting, and we had five open meetings all together. And we wanted to listen to what the community had to say, the way that people thought that it should be run, we've had quite a democratic approach to how we were going to put our ideas together. And throughout the whole process, we've always just been about listening, because I think, you know, we have to acknowledge our own privilege. Sarah 16:04 Like I'm a, you know, I'm a white woman, I'm probably straight passing, like, I have a wealth of privilege. And I know that I don't reflect the extremely diverse and beautiful community that we have. So it's really important for us and for me, personally, just to make sure that we're always forever listening and bringing people into the conversation. That's why we ran the survey that we ran in 2018, which I think about 300 people responded to. And simultaneously, we ran a project with an agency called the Flamingo Group who interviewed community leaders, community members, from a range of intersectional backgrounds, and got down on paper, the way that they would see themselves interacting with the centre, and the way that their communities might as well. Sarah 16:52 And then last year we ran a survey that was looking into the impact of COVID on the community. And it was kind of to double check the sort of research that we've done in 2018, because we knew that everyone's like economic status had changed, a lot of people's financial status had changed. A lot of people's mental health had changed. And we just knew that everything that we'd gathered then might not be true anymore, might be completely different. And we wanted what we were working on now to reflect that as well. So we had more than 500 respondents to that survey that we that we ran last year. And that's, that made it really clear that, you know, the findings, the top findings that we had from our survey in 2018, and the survey findings from the 2021 survey were still the same, it's still... the community desperately needs a community space, that is, you know, there's no entry fee, there's no alcohol, there's no nightlife, it has to be really... just have a really hard line on, like, no alcohol. Sarah 17:56 So that's really fundamental to our cause. And that they need social events that are obviously sober as well, mental health support, opportunities to tackle isolation and loneliness, and make friends. One of the other big things that came up, obviously, the cafe as well. But the other big thing that came up was that people want a community garden. And we unfortunately don't have that here. So you know, having some sort of green space, I think is really fundamental to when we have the permanent centre, whether it's a garden, it's probably unlikely it's actually going to be an outdoor garden in, you know, central London, or whether we bring a garden inside and create some sort of greenhouse or something like that. But yeah, that's the thing that I think is missing, Alim Kheraj 18:39 Right. You mentioned there, that there was a sort of overwhelming desire for a community space. Why do you think that that was lacking before? You know, the discussions happened in 2017? Because obviously, there was the Gay and Lesbian Centre in the 1980s. And that had its issues and then Section 28 really, just sort of, put that to an end. But from that point onwards, there really wasn't that much. And then in the last five to six years, there's been a variety of different things. You've got The Outside Project you've got you guys, you've got Queercircle that's in Greenwich. I think that's what they called - are they called Queercircle? Yes, Queercircle in Greenwich, and other Sarah 19:24 The Glass House now in Shoreditch. Alim Kheraj 19:25 Glass House, yeah exactly. Yeah... Megan 19:27 There's a whole host of community interests and projects, but London's a big place, and there is no way that centralises any of these services. And that's not to say that what we provide will be a one size fits all, you know, but you could have three or four centres in London. We look at the experiences outside of the capital; I used to be a trustee at Birmingham LGBT, which is the first health and wellbeing centre in the country for LGBTQ people. And that's been been going for 11 years now and has won several accolades. What we're trying to do is mirror that kind of provision, where we can provide a one stop shop, that limits the amount of journeys people have to do that can be unsafe, that can cost money, people don't always know where to get expertise. Megan 20:18 And also, what we want to do is bring different minority groups within the LGBTQ umbrella together, like you know, already in the short space of time that we've been open we've had organisations like Gaysians in for Asian queer people, you know. And being a white person myself, that's an organisation that I'd never heard of, even though I've been an activist for over 10 years. So, so what we think is that the other services that we've talked about, and the ones that we haven't mentioned, so far, they're all still valid, they're all still valuable. And we have connections with some of those, and they come in and do events, like we have Opening Doors coming in for people over 50, Metro Sexual Health, but we want... we think we can offer a space where a lot of people who don't have access to these services separately, can come in and get them. And also, of course, rent is expensive. If we get funding for a long term project, then that will provide rent, whereas some of these other smaller projects just don't have the capacity to get funding for core costs. So I think we've got a good opportunity. Sarah 21:34 Absolutely. And collaboration is fundamental to it. We've never sought to replicate any services or you know, take, or syphon audiences away from those amazing groups. It's always been about working together, supporting each other, and us just doing what we can to amplify their work. And, you know, we've got a fairly decent platform now over the four years that we've been building it, and it's just so important for us to use our voices to shout about the, the, you know, the groups that haven't got a big enough platform - or a platform as big as ours. So yeah, we're always always signposting, always signal boosting. Alim Kheraj 22:13 What do you think the catalyst was for this kind of movement towards more grassroots led organising in the past... I mean, you could say, not quite decade, but sort of six years, seven years? Megan 22:26 Well, I just think that people want to feel invested, we're no different to anybody else out there. We're just regular people, regular queer people, we've got jobs, we've got families, we've got our own challenges. And it feels to me in the last few years whether it's... whether you want to lean into, like, the Brexit, the Trump, particular political stances in this country and the culture war that's going on. For me, and I can only speak for me that makes me feel insecure. It makes me feel powerless. And being an activist at grassroots level, gives me the opportunity to contribute and see change in front of my eyes. Megan 23:10 You know, in my day job, I'm a strategic manager. And I'm... and although I have some influence, I'm a relatively small cog in a big national civil service organisation. So... and I know change is much harder to see. At grassroot level, it's actually queer people - and a lot of the money from the fundraising will have come from queer people and our allies - taking control of ourselves. And that is huge, you know. Hate crime in this country for not just queer people, but other marginalised groups, has gone through the roof in the last five years. And you know, you don't have to be a professor to understand why that is in the current political climate. Megan 23:55 And so this is our way of fighting back, taking control of our destiny, and providing just a small space where people can breathe out and exhale, even if it's for a few hours a week or once a year. You know, we get people coming in here, who, when they walked through the door two or three months ago, couldn't even speak, because they were too scared to talk up. I don't know what's happened in that person's life or those people's lives. And as they've stayed, and they've come and they can just sit and relax. They've made friends or had conversations, and that's empowering them. And then that makes me feel empowered, because I'm supporting them and contributing to it. So for me, I don't know if Sarah has probably got her own opinions. But that's why grassroots organising is happening. I don't think it's ever gone away. I don't think it's ever gone away. I just think we're more determined. Sarah 24:53 I honestly... I couldn't have put it better. Alim Kheraj 24:57 You mentioned the fundraising. Why was it important to do fundraising - community fundraising - rather than, say, approach... I don't know, businesseses or corporations for grants or what have you? Sarah 25:14 For us, it's always been - a little phrase that we sometimes use - is for the community by the community. And, you know, the LGBTQ+ community is one that disproportionately experiences poverty. And we know the impact of, of people giving away, you know, their hard earned money to an organisation, any organisation any fundraiser. We initially didn't want to take corporate money, because we wanted to do it for ourselves. And we... you know, we still have that kind of mentality now? I think we... you know, we raised 100 grand in 2018, which was, you know, even looking back at it now, it's a absolutely mind boggling amount of money. Sarah 25:55 And that was all through individual donations from ordinary LGBTQ+ people from, not just London, but from all over the country. Aside from one big chunky donation, which came from, I think it was Matthew from The 1975? Yeah, thanks for that hun! But, you know, it gets to a point, though, where we, we need to realise that, you know, spaces like this, they come at a price. Although we will never be, you know, I was just about to name drop, like a supermarket or something like, we will never be a sponsored Community Centre, we will never put anyone else's name on our door. That's not what we're about at all. But there are, you know... people do need to see that, like, spaces like this don't come for free. And we may need to take not the corporate funding, but we'll need to take some sort of big funding at some point, because we can't be, we can't be running on the community funds forever, you know? Megan 26:53 Yeah. And, you know, I mean, my own personal view is I don't mind taking funding from corporations or from city businesses, as long as we have autonomy over how we spend that many, you know, I've done a city fundraising pitch on behalf of Gendered Intelligence a couple of years ago. And we raised a few 1000 pounds in the space of minutes by people who care about what we were doing. And you know, GI is doing a great job. And the same... you know, we're grateful for all the sponsors, you know, that haven't asked for publicity, but have definitely helped open the centre and keep it running. All the furniture has been given to us. The cafe equipment has been given to us by a London-based coffee retailer, we've had so many handouts, and we couldn't have opened the centre without them. We know that it's not cynical, because a lot of the people that have helped us have said, "Please don't, you know, tell everybody who we are." So, so I just want to recognise that really, that. You know, we'll take support wherever it comes as long as it doesn't come with conditions/ Alim Kheraj 28:12 We'd love to hear from you. Tweet us @queerspacesUK, message us on Instagram at queerspacesUK, or email us at tim@queerspaces.uk. And let us know about your favourite queer spaces how you feel about the evolution of the LGBTQ+ scene. And don't forget to rate, leave a review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps us. Alim Kheraj 28:37 I remember the fundraiser in 2018 there was an intense, intense three days, four days towards the end. Sarah 28:44 It was very, very intense. Alim Kheraj 28:48 Yeah, so conversations about the pop-up then, you know, you mentioned that it was something you sort of figured, you know, we need to get this going, you know, we'll be waiting a long time. How did you decide the popup's the thing to do? Or, you know, what was that... What were the conversations like around that? Sarah 29:05 Sure. So initially, when we were planning the centre, we ruled out a pop up. We thought, you know, although there are benefits, we will have a proof of concept, we'll be able to do it on a smaller scale and see what works. We kind of thought that the sort of transient element of it might make the community feel even less like things are permanent, and less like things... I don't know how to phrase it. That there's a chance that they'll continue. And so we were always kind of, our goal was to set up a permanent space. But I think in the wake, you know, when when the pandemic hit, we, as a team we'd retracted back and taken our foot off the pedal for the project, and started giving back to the community as much as we could. Sarah 29:46 You know, I was volunteering at ELOP at the time. And I raised five grand for them as an emergency appeal. You know, we help them source the technology they needed to make sure that there, you know, that counsellors could continue to work from home. And we started giving back to other charities as well. And I think, meanwhile, we'd seen the way that the pandemic had impacted our friends and you know, the the other community members around us, the isolation. You know, being locked down with your family isn't the same for a lot of LGBTQ+ people as it is for you know, for straight or cis het people; there's a lot of danger, there's a lot of... it can be terrifying. And there's a huge amount of isolation, if you're locked in a house where people... where you're not free to be yourself, it can have a huge impact on your mental health. Sarah 30:36 And in fact, I think ELOP actually saw a huge increase in calls to their, to their services, which is... all of this information was just ringing really true to us and to me extremely important. And so that's why we revisited the idea of a pop up, we wanted something... we actually were only going to do it only for a month, initially. We thought, "Okay, quick and dirty, let's take over a, let's take over a cafe for a month, see if we can do it that way." And just have any type of physical space, because anything is better than nothing at this point. Sarah 31:12 We started looking for venues at kind of end of... God what year are we in? 2022. End of 2020, and started kind of January-ish of 2021. And that's when we sort of expanded the idea of doing it over a longer period. We were thinking, you know, a year would be amazing, can we get a location for a year. We started kind of hunting through friends that we've made along the way, you know, we've built a relationship with Southern Council over the years, you know, just building relationships with their planning team, similar with other local authorities as well, and working with the LGBT forums network, and counsellors and counsellor candidates who had all been, you know, absolutely instrumental in putting us in touch with the right people. Sarah 31:59 And it was only really, when we were kind of looking around properly that we were like, right, we know what this can actually be. Well, we'll make whatever venue we can find work for us, and we'll adapt what we can provide, according to that. And so, you know, we came to view Hopton Street, which is where we are now. I came on my own with FaceTime on with the whole gang. And we immediately... we're like, this is really just perfect, you know, its location is incredible. It's got a level of privacy, it's got a load of bushes at the front, so you don't get the footfall of the people walking past looking in. So we have that element of privacy. The only thing that it doesn't have is disabled access toilet, which is absolutely terrible. You know, we actually, we, we actually tried to knock the walls down and rebuild the toilet to make it wheelchair accessible. But it just wasn't possible for planning, which was a real shame. Because otherwise it would have been cherry on top of what was a fabulous location. Sarah 33:02 But even you know, as you've mentioned, Alim, we're in a wooden box, which, which is our quiet room, which we wanted, we knew that we needed a space with multiple rooms and to have the space to be really mobile and movable. And to have a place where there was a kind of a quiet retreat for anybody who, you know, is maybe feeling overwhelmed or needs a moment of privacy. Or you know, it's pretty soundproof, this is actually a pretty decent place to record a little podcast, you know. So yeah, we kind of just made it what we possibly could, working with an absolutely unbelievable team, who were all LGBTQ+, headed up by Martha Summers, who's a queer architect who had worked on the feminist library before this. And it all just came together in a matter of about two weeks, in the end. We started in January, looking at places, saw this place, I think, in July, and then got the keys 14th of November, and then we were open on the first of December. Megan 34:01 Yeah, I mean, I mean, we worked at pace. I think it's really important to, to really understand the amount of work that is involved in opening a community space. And as I said, you know, I've been an activist for a long, long time, and I've been a trustee, a volunteer. I've done all sorts of things with different charities. And I knew that we were taking on a massive job. And so for me, we didn't open a pop up as a shortcut. We opened it because we, you know, personally, I wanted to see the people involved, understand how much work, how much work it will take. And we're reacting to our circumstances. We opened in a pandemic, you know, so we're all dealing with our own family challenges, work challenges, mental health experiences and stuff like this. Megan 34:49 And on top of that, there's a real challenge in finding a suitable site across the whole of London. And as we were negotiating with councils for the space, you know, they were telling us that London's opening up by last summer, you know, we'd come out of the most strict lockdown, London's opening up, businesses are coming back, the economy is gonna start. And that means there isn't a, you know, a flurry of empty spaces. So it's really, it's really important that I think listeners understand the incredible amount of work, and luck, that goes into getting something like this open. And we only have this for a limited period, because, you know, the Council have, - you know, we're very grateful - have helped us out financially. They need to put it back on the market to get market rates, because you know, they've got to get an income too. So it really is a big undertaking. And I think, you know, we've already demonstrated with five trustees, a project manager, and two staff at the centre, what can be achieved. Alim Kheraj 35:54 I guess it's really good foundation as well for moving forward for a permanent space to say, we've done this, we've got this, here's our examples. Here's proof that it's successful. Here's proof that it works. And you can go to someone who, I don't know, who might be able to offer a permanent space and present it? Megan 36:15 Yeah, absolutely. You know, throughout the project, we're conducting more and more research. You know, in my day job, I'm a diversity inclusion specialist. You know, intersectionality is just like, something that's at the heart of everything I do. And as... we're not saying we're the experts, we're a passionate group of queer activists, you know, we don't have all the answers. And by doing this pop up and spending some money, you know, we can see what will work in the long term and how to provide the most inclusive space. You know, if you look at our team, we have a diverse team. We're queer, we're trans, we're bisexual, we're lesbian, we're white, black and brown. There's all you know... we're trying our hardest to be representative of the community. And, and it's great to be part of it. Alim Kheraj 37:14 We mentioned briefly the Gay and Lesbian Centre from the 1980s. That was obviously funded by Ken Livingstone, who gave them I think it was a million pounds. It was like the first time that a local authority had funded a gay organisation. Why do you think that there's, that it's become harder to get government money for a sort of space like this? Sarah 37:39 I don't know. I think maybe like the aftermath of Section 28 is really felt a lot. Like I, you know, I'm 30 now. I grew up under Section 28. I'm sure, you know, a lot of us did. And the ripple effect can still be felt throughout the whole country. And I think... I don't think local authorities are necessarily scared of funding queer initiatives anymore, I think people are very cautious over where they're going to be spending money for risk of getting it wrong. I think that people are worried that they might be sucked into, you know, funding a gay organisation that potentially isn't intersectional. I think also people can be a bit worried of, of if there's going to be any, like social media backlash, you know, if it angers the TERFS, you know, there are all of these risks, I guess, involved. I don't see them necessarily as risks. I think you should just give us all your money anyway, you know, but I think people can be overly cautious because of that, and I don't think Section 28 helps to be honest. Alim Kheraj 38:41 Yeah. I guess also, there's less... probably less money floating around than there was... Sarah 38:47 Absolutely. Alim Kheraj 38:48 In Margaret Thatcher's era. Megan 38:49 Yeah. I mean, we've gone through austerity, you know. There's less money - and I can't really be drawn into the politics of it because of my job, my day job. Alim Kheraj 38:57 Right. Megan 38:58 But I think, you know, I'm an optimist, and I'm looking for solutions. So we want to concentrate on where there is funding, you know, whether that's through the lottery, grants through private donors, you know, so that's where we're going to focus our energies. You know, we're confident, you know, we have a lot of great contacts and friends in the right places. And we have a lot of skills on board, you know, later this year we'll be recruiting more trustees. We want to increase capacity in this, in what we do, and we are looking - we will be looking for trustees to help and come on board and, you know, get the centre permanent. Alim Kheraj 39:43 So yeah, let's talk about sort of positions because I know you're both voluntary, right? Megan 39:49 We're all voluntary. Except for the part time Project Manager. We have Priscilla who is an absolute angel. You know, I feel very lucky. And sometimes I think... I'm not, I'm not religious. But sometimes I think the universe answers and the fact that Priscilla came on board definitely is an example of that. And then we have two paid members of staff who run the centre. But apart from that all five of us are trustees, who are volunteers with full time jobs. Alim Kheraj 40:20 So what's that, like balancing, balancing, you know, full time work and an undertaking like this? Because it's a big undertaking? Sarah 40:29 Yeah it's not... it is pretty tough sometimes, like, you know. I moved jobs in March last year, it's almost a year ago. Now, before that, I was working in politics. And so I was I was working at the Labour Party, I was running all of our digital campaigns. So I was doing, you know, European elections, local elections, the general election, all at the same time was trying to do the Community Centre, and it was, you know, incredibly stressful and challenging. And, you know, any job, it doesn't have to be high demand, or it doesn't have to be a stressful job. It's almost like having two full time jobs. And it does, it does take a toll on your life. You know, I've certainly feel guilty for ignoring my, like, leaving my partner alone all evening sometimes, and like, you know, you do feel that, but there's just, I just have this call inside me that I just can't ignore. And, you know, it's, it's hard, but it's the best thing I've ever done. And I'd do it all over again. What do you think Megs? Megan 41:28 Yeah, I mean, it is hard. I mean, I talk a lot about mental health as a trans person in the media, you know, I've been interviewed in books, magazines, online, on TV. I suppose I have a bit of a profile as a trans woman. And that's not going to change anytime soon, with all the debates about trans identities. And it's a, it's a fine balance for me. I have complex PTSD, I had a nervous breakdown 14 years ago. I'll manage my mental health for the rest of my life. I don't drink smoke, or take drugs anymore. And I've done all three copious amounts of. So as I said earlier, being part of this kind of initiative, gives me power. And it gives me some control over what feels like a real powerless situation for particularly trans people in this country. Megan 42:26 I mean, I thought it was going to be hard coming out 20 years ago, 10 years ago, whatever. And I've never felt so threatened as I do now. So it is hard work. There are times when we don't all get on, we don't always see eye to eye, I think that it's a journey, it's definitely a learning journey. And we try our best to be gentle with each other. And, that's all right, like, I, I think I just come to terms with the fact that what we can do is limited. It's not perfect, it is relying on money coming in and the capacity of us, and we're taking external advice and support to, you know, to become more resilient as an organisation and to grow, and hence, we'll be putting out for trustees looking for people with specific skill sets. But you know, this is the nature of charity work, isn't it? Like, you know, I don't know, a single charity that, you know, that operates without stress and anxiety, it's just the nature of this type of work. And, you know, we're all prepped for it. And, you know, there will come a time where I want to move on, or Sarah, might or somebody else, and that's fine. You know, we are doing our bit, and that's as much as we can do. Sarah 43:43 That's it actually, like, you know, I joined the project when I was 26. And my life was completely different then than it is now. You know, I've got a fiance, I've got a dog, like I have... it's not really the same as having a baby - but like, I feel that responsibility of like, God, I like actually, I used to be a parent or like I need to be, you know, in my family. And I've kind of grown up with this project, like, you know, so I think it's understandable that, you know, people have their life to live, they need to do what they have to do. And... sometimes they need a day off, or sometimes they just need to, like, have a breath. But I think it's easy to forget that we are just, we're just people who really care a lot, and we're doing the very best we can. And yeah, I think everyone needs to be reminded that with all the charities, you know, everyone's just got the best intentions and that kindness goes a long way. Alim Kheraj 44:37 To sort of round things off. Where do you see the sort of LGBTQ scene going in the future? How, how do do you picture the community within that forward vision? Sarah 44:51 Our vision... so we we had a strategy session recently with Steph from the Birmingham LGBT Centre, (who is an icon by the way), if you if you don't know Birmingham LGBT - get to know. And we were like talking about our vision as a group and as an organisation and we were like throwing all these words around like, a more belonging and thriving London. And like, that's what I... that's what I foresee. I foresee it being less about, you know, the gays go there the lesbians go there, the bisexuals go there, the trans people go there, like, it's not, it's not about that anymore. I feel like it hasn't been for a long time. Sarah 45:28 And I think that we're all kind of wrapping our arms around each other and just carrying each other as we move forward as a community. And that's the type of like, vibe that I certainly feel when I'm walking down the street and, you know, can see all the love around me. I think it's amazing what the community in London is doing at the moment. And, you know, indeed, all over the country, like all sorts of amazing projects are popping up. And, you know, I hope that we have inspired anyone else to set up something similar in their town or city and, you know, we, if we can help, you know, give advice on that, then absolutely get in touch. And we'll do what we can to share our failure, and our learnings, so that they don't have to make the same mistakes. But yeah, I'm super optimistic about it. Megan 46:11 I mean, I think, you know, queer visibility, as you know, moved exponentially over the last 20 years, when I think about myself as a kid coming to terms with trans and being, you know, terrified of ever coming out in the 90s. Because of the way we were treated, then, you know, queer people are everywhere, you know. It talks about all the time and generation Z, and the millennials, you know, they're not gonna hide in the shadows, they're out here, we're all we're all here. And, you know, regardless of what the political movements are, we're not going anywhere. And, you know, I've spent 30 years on the club scene, you know, that's where I came to terms, and came to embrace my queerness. But, you know, I've moved past that really, I still go out I still party, but as I said, I don't take drink or drugs anymore. Megan 47:05 And people need to be welcomed into all aspects of queer life, you know, and that has to be able to exist outside clubs and bars. I've always be grateful for them and always play a part in them. But people you know, there are people with anxieties, people who can't drink, people who are recovering from substance misuse issues. They need quiet, safe spaces where they can make friends and remember it in the morning, you know. So, I think it is just incredibly exciting. Not just in London, but all over the UK, where these grassroots organisations and activities are starting up, whether it's, you know, supper clubs, kitchens, whether it's sports clubs, community centres, all kinds of stuff. And I think it's really, really exciting time to be involved. Alim Kheraj 47:59 Great. Well, thank you so much for your time and for chatting to us about the LGBTQ community centre. Yes, thanks very much! Sarah 48:07 Thanks for having us! [applause] Alim Kheraj 48:13 You can visit the London LGBTQ+ Community Centre in their pop up space at 60 to 62, Hopton St. Blackfriars SE1 9JH, London. Donations to the Community Centre can be made at their website, LondonLGBTQcentre.org, where you can also find a full list of events and activities taking place at the centre. You can find them on Twitter and Instagram @LDNLGBTQcentre and at facebook.com/LDNLGBTQcentre. Alim Kheraj 48:46 Queer Spaces: Behind the Scene was born out of a desire to document the importance that queer spaces have to LGBTQ+ people. Each episode is complemented by original photography and portraiture by Tim Boddy. You can find these pictures on queerspaces.uk or on Twitter and Instagram @queerspacesUK. Find out more by subscribing to our newsletter. Queer Spaces is produced, written and edited by Tim Boddy, and hosted and written by me Alim Kheraj. The podcast is supported through a MEAD Fellowship awarded by the University of Arts London.