Alim Kheraj Episode 6: GGI Alim Kheraj Hello, and welcome to Queer Spaces: Behind The scene, a podcast and photography series where we document contemporary LGBTQ+ spaces and analyse the ever shifting landscape of the UK is queer scene. I'm your host Alim Kheraj. I'm a freelance writer whose work is mainly about the intersection of queerness and popular culture. I'm also the author of Queer London: A guide to LGBTQ+ London past and present. Tim Boddy And I'm Tim Boddy, a photographer, artist and picture editor whose work generally centres on the LGBTQ+ community. Alim Kheraj Each episode of Queer Spaces: Behind the Scene will feature in-depth conversations with a diverse range of voices behind some pivotal LGBTQ+ groups and spaces. Each episode will be complemented by original photography and portraiture by Tim, which captures the spirit of the community. Our conversation in this episode is with artist, activist and nightlife organiser June Lam, the founder of GGI, London’s only rave for queer, trans & nonbinary East and South East Asian people. We spoke about the barriers preventing marginalised groups from forming their own club nights, femininity and faggotry, and LGBTQ+ activism. Just a heads up, we recorded this interview near an active train line. So you may hear the rumble of a passing train. Alim Kheraj What's the best place you've ever been to a queer club night, or queer club, or queer clubbing experience? Tim Boddy Yeah, it's such a hard question to answer. But I noticed comes up in the episode and it's quite a relatively predictable thing to say: but The yard. Alim Kheraj Love the yard. Tim Boddy Love The Yard. Yeah, I know we've talked about it before and been there many times before with each other. Yes. And yeah, it just... there is something... it has a unique identity, particularly in London, due to I guess having that huge outside area. It is in a warehouse. So kind of big, tall ceilings. It feels like quite a relaxed place to just exist and be. And the fact that they curate their nights in a certain way. Like they've they hosted many queer nights over the past 6, 7, 8 years. So it kind of feels like a safer environment than I don't know, perhaps taking over another straight place, for example. Alim Kheraj Yeah, Tim Boddy Yeah, it's just nice. Alim Kheraj And I like that you can go in and out really easily. They've got this this courtyard at the front for anyone who's not been and they keep the doors open. So you can go in and out. It's not like a separate smoking area that's behind a door or with a queue. You can literally just come in and out, which after... it was my first clubbing experience after COVID and that made such a big difference to be able to... feeling comfortable in that space after being inside for two years. Tim Boddy Yeah, because it does have that... Yeah, just a sense of space. You can like almost be by yourself and not like feel like you're rammed in. And like if you need five or 10 minutes just to take a breather. It's like a natural kind of yeah, safer haven to be in. Like if Robyn comes on in a dance floor, you can just literally sprint there in five seconds. Get right in the thick of a dance floor after being in that kind of smoking area. Alim Kheraj Yeah exactly. I did go to one place. This was a really... this is a really long time ago. 2000 and... actually 2009, again. In New York in Brooklyn. That was... have you ever seen the film Shortbus Tim Boddy I have yes. Alim Kheraj You know the party from Shortbus that they go... the Shortbus party basically... it was the party that that is based on? It don't have all the sex in it. I know, it was disappointing. Alim Kheraj Shortbus about the sex? Alim Kheraj I know, but it was like an artist's collectively thing. And it was really bizarre it was in... I don't even know what the space was - not legal I don't think it was meant to be there at all. And we were up on the roof. And I remember talking to this person that had on - you know, an old red military jackets that the British used to wear? Like 1600s. And he thought we were so weird because we had English accents. That was probably the weirdest. And it was queer adjacent. That was probably the weirdest space I've ever been in one. I mean, even when we used to go to Metropolis, it kind of felt right. Yeah. Even though it was a strip club. Alim Kheraj Yeah. Yeah, I do miss Metropolis actually, just that kind of chaotic energy. And again, very unique space, like on three or four floors? Alim Kheraj Yeah, three or four floors. Sand, I think in a club is like a no no, for me, really. I remember once going to Heaven for... and there was... I don't know what was going on there actually. It was like a tourism convention. But also a club night. And they had put sand down. Tim Boddy Oh, no. Alim Kheraj I know. It was just disgusting. I think there was a hot tub. And I was like, if you're getting in a hot tub at Heaven, you're going to get an infection. Tim Boddy Yes. I mean, we've seen what's happened with the G-A-Y ice machine and things like that exact. It's probably just that melted down into the hot tub. Alim Kheraj Maybe... it still gives me the heebie jeebies thinking about that sand. Tim Boddy Yeah. Even you describing it. It's given me the heebie jeebies. Alim Kheraj And I felt the same at Metropolis about the sand. Tim Boddy Yes very uneasy, though. If you're in a certain state of mind, you know, maybe slightly intoxicated or whatever. Yeah. You do have a friendly relationship either like: absolutely loving it. Oh, my God sound feels amazing. Or just being absolutely repulsed. Alim Kheraj Yeah I think depending on how favourable your party things were. Tim Boddy Yes, exactly. But it's interesting, I guess on the less kind of over the top spaces, like places like the RVT. I think it's just a nice place to exist in and particularly what they curate and put on that just yeah, it just feels homely, and a safe pair of hands. Alim Kheraj And it's unassuming from the outside, which I quite like even though it's a big, looming pub-looking space, it looks like it's a pub and you go in and and it's not really a pub. It kind of is a pub, but it's not really a pub. Tim Boddy Yes. Like a Hybrid... Alim Kheraj Hybrid pub. Cabaret. Club space. Unfortunately, it's listed status means that it gets very hot in there. Tim Boddy Yes. A little bit sweaty. Alim Kheraj A little bit sweaty. And it's, it's not that comfortable to like, pop in for a drink. It's usually... I would go there for something. Yeah. Because that's sort of how it's set up. Do you remember as well going to was it Debbie? Tim Boddy Oh, Debbie yeah. I used to love Debbie. Alim Kheraj In an arch... in in some arches near Bethnal Green? Tim Boddy Yeah, Debbie moved around. That was another kind of transient, temporal one. It was also in a place in Dalston for a bit as well. Alim Kheraj And I remember going outside, and I don't know whether this was just because I had been drinking but the outside... It felt like it was like, filled with wood. Like wood... chopped up wood? Tim Boddy Okay, interesting. Alim Kheraj So this is a really bizarre Yeah, like, this doesn't feel safe. Tim Boddy Yeah, it's like the bags of onions at The Yard with Knickerbocker. Alim Kheraj It's like what's going on here? Tim Boddy You don't get that in Ku Bar do you? Alim Kheraj No, you really do not. Tim Boddy And another quick shout out... I know The Chateau does not exist, but that felt like just a really good place to have... Yeah, just have a queer night or they had like a broad range of things happening. So it could also be... you can go for a pub quiz, but then it can be like a messier kind of later night affair as well. And yeah, we need more spaces like that, I think. Alim Kheraj Yeah, I really liked The Chateau. Yeah. Rip rip, although it still exists in its transient nature. Tim Boddy Yeah. Not just yeah... Not a physical space as such. But yeah, interesting to see how that develops and where Laurie takes it next as well. Alim Kheraj Yeah. It will be fun to see more places be co-opted. You know, like the Bethnal Green Working Men's Club, like Metropolis for a while. I do have this great fantasy of someone might take over an abandoned castle and like turning it into like a queer... queer wonderland. Tim Boddy Oh my God, that sounds incredible. Alim Kheraj And we... could you call Dreamland at Margate, a queer space? It's sort of a fanfare, but like, Tim Boddy Err it's a fun space? Alim Kheraj It's a fun and they do have pride concerts there. It's not really a queer space. I mean, it is sort of at times. Tim Boddy Yeah, maybe it can be a work in progress. Alim Kheraj Work in Progress. Because fun fairs are fun. Tim Boddy We need to take it over. Me and you together, and the queer community, and queer up... Alim Kheraj Well, there is a new queer space opening in Margate. Tim Boddy CAMP. Which may even be open by the time this goes out because I think it's due in June at some point. Yeah. So Yeah. Can't wait to go there. Yeah, absolutely. We should have them on at some point. Yes, please CAMP if you're listening. Alim Kheraj Today we're joined by June Lam, the founder of GGI, the first queer East and Southeast Asian rave night in London. Hi, June. How are you? June Lam Hi Alim! I'm good. Enjoying the heat. How are you? Alim Kheraj I'm good. Thank you. Yes, it's very warm outside. Just to give a bit of a description. Where are we right now? June Lam We are in the Koppel Project hive, near Chancery Lane in central London. Alim Kheraj Right we're in what feels like a disused meeting room, but it's quite fun. Yeah. So yeah, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind first of all, sort of telling us what your pronouns are, and a little bit about yourself? June Lam Okay. My pronouns are he/him. I am an artist. I grew up in Australia. June Lam I'm trans. I'm of East and - both East and Southeast Asian descent, so my family are from China and Vietnam. And I'm queer. I'm fag identified. I'm femme. And I'm also work in nightlife and community organising with a number of different groups. Alim Kheraj What does that mean to be fag-Identified? June Lam Fag-identified... Yeah, I don't know. I'm like, Yeah. I think it's about being like... I think it's a way of like describing femmeness that's like, very much like, within the realm of like, you know, like the history of like faggots and their friends. Oh, like, I want to be able to be like, oh, I'm femme. But like, I don't want to, like take up space of like, trans femininity. Like, I want to be like... I can talk about being femme in a way that's like very much of my gender as well. Alim Kheraj Yes. So very much a friend of Dorothy. June Lam Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Alim Kheraj GGI started in December 2021. Is that right? June Lam Yeah that was the first night. So I was given the funding by Night Drafts, by the Yard as part of the Night Drafts programme, which was like kind of a pilot actually, wanting to sort of... very much in the line of like the Arts Council and Sadiq Khan, and all of these like people trying to, like reactivate the nightlife sector and I guess the Yard wanting to probably... Yeah, support that. And they are quite... Yeah, they've put on quite a few like experimental nights. But like, I think like more recently, things have quieted down because of COVID. And so they're like, oh, like, let's commission three nights by marginalised communities. And they gave me 3000 pounds funding across three different... three events. So I think that kicked off around October. Alim Kheraj Right. So obviously, it was part of this sort of, how would you describe it? Grant scheme, kind of, from the Yard? June Lam Yeah, yeah. So um, just to clarify the night, the Yard is an independent theatre in Hackney Wick in Queens yard, and they also have a space that's like, more of a club space. So people, you know, do quite interesting club nights, like, sort of queer events, sort of like Afrobeats. But you know, there's just quite a range of different types of nights put on there. And they've been doing quite exciting stuff. So I was keen to envisage like how I could use that space essentially. It's also like not a super intimidating space, like about 200 capacity. So I was like, Okay, this is like would be a good like, jumping off point for something that I've always wanted to do. Alim Kheraj Yeah, so you'd always wanted to kind of have your own club night? June Lam I think it was more that I've spent I guess, like prior to COVID happening I was more involved in like specifically performing arts, visual arts, performing arts, live art. And during the pandemic, I got involved in a lot more community organising. And obviously.... so I'm one of the directors of We Exist, which is a trans healthcare fund and arts organisation. So I put on events with We Exist before, but during COVID I got more involved with like, I guess queer ESEA groups like Asian Art activism, and I'm a member and Resist, who are involved in more like organising around deportations and raising awareness around Essex 39. June Lam So I really wanted to centre... like have a space centering people from that community. I think I got very inspired by the people I was working with in those spaces. And I was like, oh, but like, what can I do to contribute? And I'm always someone that's like loves, you know... loves to bring people together actually, but in ways that are more healing. As in like, I'm not someone that's like on the front lines necessarily, like I go to protests, but I also just like, love to create spaces of like healing and care and celebration, I think that's like sort of more where my skills lie. And I think that's kind of what I brought to We Exist. And I wanted to kind of create that space for people that are queer and trans, East and Southeast Asian as well. Alim Kheraj Can you tell me a bit about the name? How you landed on the name? June Lam GGI? Yeah, so I essentially wanted a name that wasn't like, Western centric, or wasn't kind of like, making... I think there's a lot of names that are like, feel like they're like making fun of like, queer Eastern... I don't know, like making a joke of it. And I think like, there's something about like, GGI that like... because it means, it's like a word you would use to describe like a femme faggy sister or friends, you know, like a sister in the gay sense. So I wanted to use a name that was kind of de-centralising, I guess, Western, you know, ways of talking about East and Southeast Asian people. So it's very much like a term that comes from Korean culture. And I think it's another one of those terms like similar to like faggy. It's like, one that's reclamatory? So the way it's used by Korean people, is very much like a sort of modern usage of like, "Oh, like this was derogatory at some point." But it's actually like really reclamatory now, and I made sure to like kind of cross check that with people of course [laughter]. Alim Kheraj You mentioned there decentralising away from a sort of Western gaze. And one of the things you talked about in your written interview you gave with Timeout, where you talked about how there were nights run by non ESEA people that were themed around ESEA cultures, but often resorted to sort of Orientalist stereotypes. And I was sort of wondering if that was something you had encountered yourself? June Lam I don't think I've been specifically to a themed night. But I mean, I've just spoken to people recently, I had a conversation with someone who went to Cambridge and they are Japanese, and there was essentially like the... I think it was the Japanese Society was approached by this particular... What do you call those houses that are in like posh universities? Alim Kheraj Colleges June Lam Colleges! Yeah, they were approached by one of the colleges to put on a Japanese themed night, but it was... and then they'd asked members of that society, if anyone was happy to wear a kimono and give out sweets. And also I'd seen, it's essentially like more... This is particularly related to like Orientalism and ornamentalism of like, East and Southeast Asian femmes, but like, seeing nights pop up within the kink scene? That were like, oh, this is themed around In the Mood for Love, or like everyone please wear kimonos and, you know, it was like, oh, there's a very, like, specific kind of like, distastefulness around... that being something that would be titillating in that kind of space. So I think it's very contextual. It's like there's nothing inherently wrong with like theming a night around like, a Wong Kar Wai film, but like, I think the implication within a kink space really like perpetuates existing ideas about like, desirability, and like, what... Yeah, it's quite dehumanising actually to create spaces like that. Without really reckoning with the history of like, what's come before. Alim Kheraj Because obviously, you're creating a space within an existing environment. How do you go about... although it's all about intention, how do you go about avoiding kind of your night becoming either co-opted, but into that sort of realm, or avoid people coming into that space and disrupting it and sort of forcing that on it? June Lam I think that's something I'm still like figuring out but what I've tried to do is have very clear messaging that this is not a space for... that this is very, very clearly a space for East and Southeast Asian, queer and trans people and that those are the people that we centre in the space. And also that if you're someone that's not in that community, you're coming, as you know, a guest of someone within that community. So encouraging people not to kind of come alone to the night, you know? But come as come as a guest. And then to not take a ticket away from like... I guess like, I'm not at the point where like, every single night is selling out. But I guess like, if we got to that point, I would sort of want to give out messaging that if you are a group of white people coming in, you're taking a big space away, actually. But you know, it's still... I'm coming up to the fourth night. So it's still very much in the early stages. Alim Kheraj And there's a... you mentioned, you have a history as an artist, and there's a sort of performance art and cinematic element to it too. Can you sort of tell me a bit about why you wanted to incorporate that? June Lam I think, at the beginning, it was very much like, oh, who, who do I enjoy in my community? And I enjoy, like, you know, like, there's just a lot of people who I really think are amazing artists, and I wanted them to have a role in that space. And I don't know, if I even had the intention for this space to become a rave. It started off as like, Okay, I'm going to invite, like, as many people as I can, who I think are inspiring to me, and create this space. And then I think, I felt that like, people wanted a rave. Everyone really just wants to, like, get into that headspace of like, I just want to block everything out and dance. And so I think that's like, I felt that I should create that. That's what I needed to provide. And I think that's been like, responded to very well. Alim Kheraj And what about the music? How did you kind of figure out what space you wanted to exist in sort of that way? June Lam So the music that I've been programming, like, I think it's quite a melting pot, like it's quite eclectic. And the first night, I think I had like darkcore, and GABA and house and a bit of disco like, it was quite a weird, mixed bag. But I think it's... Yeah, I think that's kind of evolved. So the most recent night has just been very, like, consistently more within the industrial sound. And I'm actually quite excited because there's a sound system upgrade. So we can kind of do more like exciting stuff in terms of that. June Lam Yeah, I think there's also been a way for me to discover artists and to, to realise what's exciting to me, like, for example, I felt really, I feel really strongly that like, there's a real need for like, specifically queer, East and Southeast Asian femmes to like, make really hard music. Someone like Nanzhen Yang, and also like, Sayang, who both played at the last night. I just feel like... and also Clarity as well. I feel like using this like very, kind of like, yeah, hard industrial sound to like, push a boundary, and like rewrite a script about like, what, what we believe, like, East and Southeast Asian femmes are, capable of or want to create. And it doesn't feel like it's like trying to prove something, but it does very much feel like a sort of resistance against a space that we've been forced into. Alim Kheraj Yeah, sort of contrast and stereotypes basically. June Lam Yeah exactly. But not like, in a way of like: fuck you. Just kind of it... it just feels like it's, um, I don't know, like, creating a new sound that is like, empowering actually, for someone who identifies that way. Like, it feels empowering. Yeah, I don't know if that makes sense. Alim Kheraj Yeah, cuz it's about creating something powerful and disruptive. And when perhaps your place in society is not seen as powerful. June Lam Yeah, I guess it's like we were trying to... not actually trying, but like, rewriting a script that you've been put into, and I can kind of identify with that. Like, I feel like there's been a lot of scripts that have been imposed onto me that I then have to, like, make a conscious like, I have to rewrite those creatively. Like, find ways of addressing the ways in which I've been put into roles. Alim Kheraj What roles do you feel you've been put into? June Lam I think in the past like when I presented differently as like, I am... you know, like passive or like very intellectual or very like kind of like, submissive or very feminine or... and now I think like because of how I present I'm expected to like be the boyfriend. [laughter]. And then that's also quite weird. So I think it's quite extreme. Like I think I think there's quite like jarring extremes about visibility as a sort of like coded person. And I think it's a really interesting way, like in music is a really interesting way of like challenging those things. Alim Kheraj We were just on a panel this past weekend, with Nadine from Pxssy Palace. June Lam Love Nadine a good friend of mine. Alim Kheraj Amazing. And they talked about some of the complications they'd had, with Pxssy Palace, kind of working with security and venues as queer people. Mainly because queer nights are often quite temporal and they travel around and you don't get to sort of set up home and build your own sort of security net there. And I was sort of wondering how... what your experience has been like tha,t of working with a venue, working with security, like ensuring people are, you know, not harassed at the door or don't have like moments of, like disphoric interactions, and things like that. June Lam It's a really important issue. And I think it's quite, you know, because Pxssy Palace has been running for like five years, and there is like such an infrastructure there, but even they have that issue. So, you know, for sort of fledgling night, it's a whole different... Yeah, it's even more of a challenge. And so I've tried my best to be quite specific in the way that I brief security, without assuming that they know anything. And I also have a trans person, Lucien, working the door at my parties. And he's absolutely amazing. Yeah, it's really hard because I put someone trans in that role so that they can have the authority to check IDs. When security... when trans people will not want to show a security guard their ID, you know, that's from my experience. I feel very unsafe, when I have to show government ID. So yeah, I think it's quite sticky. I think it's really, really hard. Alim Kheraj Yeah, one thing that Nadine said was that it would be good to create our, like, our own sort of queer security... I don't know, agency, organisation... June Lam Definitely. It'd be amazing to have people that had been I know, we'd trained. Like, you know, like, our queer organisation. But, uh, yeah, I think that'd be a really good thing to like, create reform in. But yeah, again, like, I'm still starting up. Alim Kheraj Yeah, I guess for four nights. And it's all a learning process. June Lam Exactly, exactly. So I'm just learning from every, every one that I do, and trying my best to, like sort of communicate my needs, like to the people I'm working with. Alim Kheraj We'd love to hear from you. Tweet us @queerspacesUK, message us on Instagram at queerspacesUK, or email us at tim@queerspaces.uk. And let us know about your favourite queer spaces how you feel about the evolution of the LGBTQ+ scene. And don't forget to rate, leave a review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps us. Alim Kheraj The yard's Night Draft scheme, sort of mentioned that that kind of helped you facilitate the thing that you've sort of been thinking about? Why do you think that it was something that felt not impossible, but perhaps difficult to achieve before that came along? June Lam Because I'm, like, freelance working class trans migrant. So, yeah... I think if you look at the nightlife sector, anyone that owns venues, anyone that like, runs like long standing nights, they've always had some sort of like, startup funding, or, you know, intergenerational wealth or like, you know. Snd I think like, because of, what, what you need in order to, like, kind of take that risk of like, starting a space. Yeah, there's not that many POC-led spaces, queer POC-led spaces that are long standing, like so many of them have failed, and it's quite sad to see like, obviously, it's really like, heartening to see that like, Pxssy Palace is thriving. And yeah, there's obviously a few other spaces but... if you do like a sort of cross section of the scene, and it's just dominated by cis white men. Yeah. Alim Kheraj Yeah, I was just sort of curious because there's this, I think, perhaps, misinformed notion that like anyone can do it, anyone can start a club night and do their thing. And, you know, it's seen as this quite democratic space, but it clearly is not. June Lam No, and it's not. And also, I think, even though I received some funding, a big part of the reason why my nights done well is because I have worked in nightlife for a few years, and I have quite good connections. I've been able to, you know, promote through other platforms, because of the people that I know, I know, quite a few DJs. And so I think that's really helped, you know, in terms of like social capital, that's, that's helped a lot. And I think that needs to be sort of spoken about as well. Alim Kheraj Yeah. Yeah. You've mentioned that you've worked in nightlife? What is your experience of LGBTQ spaces in London been like? June Lam Good and bad. I think, you know, just going back to being a coded person, in certain ways. It comes with, like, sort of so many positives and negatives. Yeah, I think just in terms of the reason why I've been so passionate to create GGI is that there isn't, specifically a night catering to this community, the East and Southeast Asian people, femme people, I think specifically. Like it's not, it's it's implicit, but the night is for people that are more sort of femme coded I think. That's why like, the imagery is all bottoms. I don't know if you've noticed! So I think very much... that's very much because even within queer spaces, there is very much this sort of, like, mass supremacy, in terms of nightlife. And I feel that, you know, it's something that I experienced, you know, the invisibility of being someone that sort of read as more femme, more passive. Yeah, and stands out in those spaces. So I really wanted to kind of push back against that. Alim Kheraj And I guess, being assumed as that as well, when you're in those spaces, and whether that might be the case or not, you don't want to be assumed that that's who you are just because of how you're presenting, which feels unfair. Alim Kheraj So you've mentioned that you've... you're involved with We Exist, and, you know, over the pandemic, you got involved in some more kind of activism, how does that feed into GGI? June Lam I think it's more indirect because I think I specifically wanted to create a space that felt like a space of celebration where people that were working in community organising could go and actually let their hair down and like, not think about that, and where it's like not about it's, it's actually a space for people that are more marginalised to be with one another, as opposed to centering resistance. And I hope that makes sense. Yeah, completely. It's more for us to share space with one another for one another, as opposed to being in a position ality of like opposition or or needing to, like demand our rights. Like I think I do quite a lot of that. But this is not that space. Alim Kheraj How does it make you feel that just by doing that, it does sort of become a political act in itself? June Lam Yeah. I think in the spirit of like faggots and their friends, I think like rest and celebration is political. So Alim Kheraj How does We Exist go about kind of making space for trans people? I mean, we're in what I imagine is a sort of a We exist space. Yeah. How does that kind of how do you go about doing that when, when we've sort of mentioned queer spaces, often also temporal and ephemeral. June Lam So we just doesn't have a permanent space. Space we're in is our residency space for the exhibition that we've kind of received out Arts Council funding for and like the support of the couple project, but I think what we do do is like it is kind of a femoral actually, like it's, it's a healthcare fund, redistributing wealth to, you know, people that need it, whether it's for transition or not. And then we also put on fundraisers and also trans healthcare workshops. And then this particular space is like a reactivation of the residency that we had. Yeah, I guess, like giving a platform really. So I don't know if I'm answering the question. Alim Kheraj Yeah, no, I just was curious about how you go about sort of choosing a space sort of all making that space like forcing your way into space or in that regard when it comes to something like We Exist? June Lam Because I think there's so many collectives that are working towards, like trans liberation, or we actually just like, I think we kind of all inform each other, I think what we exist is doing is not unique, but it's very much like part of, you know, not a formal coalition, but it's part of like, a lot of other groups who are kind of trying to do the same thing like black trans foundation transactional, not a phase, there's quite a lot of different, like community organisations that are pushing for structural change, and doing things in a sort of more grassroots way that is really focused on like, what the need is right now. Yeah, I don't know if that makes sense. Alim Kheraj Um, why is having a physical space important in that respect? Or why do you think June Lam I think it's really important for marginalised people to be able to gather with one another, I think there is a real lack of opportunity. I think because of the, the difficulty of actually even getting people in a room together, like to have physical spaces incredibly valuable, just allows us to be like, have a place to do the work. You know, and and also, just to check in with one another than to kind of like, you know, yeah, I'm sorry, I think that's a difficult question, to be honest. Alim Kheraj It is! Again, we were talking about this at the weekend about, you know, someone raised the point about, you know, the rise of online spaces, and whether that means that we don't, it's not enough. I mean, the answer is always that we need more money, both. And, you know, we June Lam Definitely need both. I think there's great value to online spaces. And I think the pandemic has been incredibly useful in helping like us, develop technologies and rethink the way in which we gather but and organise, but I think there's nothing like being able to like, be in a room with other people of your community. I think we like massively need that. And I think that is what that is why key feels so incredibly, like vital to me, is because for so many people that attend tonight, it's the first time they've been in a room full of like, other queer East and Southeast Asians. It's like a really empowering feeling Alim Kheraj Must be quite emotional for people to go there. And they... you must do you see people get emotional? I Imagine. At least they've got that big outside space. To cool down. Yeah, well, let's see, it was the first thing that I did. We went to Knickerbocker during the pandemic, it was during the pandemic? Wasn't that was it? Yeah. And if it hadn't had that outside space, I would have not gone but it was quite, it's quite a nice. It's such a nice dynamic spaces. June Lam People always talk about how they absolutely love that smoking area. And that so many beautiful conversations happen between strangers, specifically a key because you know, everyone's just kind of eager to get to know each other, which is so nice. Alim Kheraj Yeah, it's like you're creating a space for community to build. How would you like to see the night grow? June Lam So recently, we've done a few sort of collaborations. The we did Risen Festival, which is the festival for femme, trans, non binary women. And that was really fun. That was we had a little stage at HWK, that was super cute. And we did a collaboration with Howl at Colour Factory that was also super fun. And hopefully that will continue to grow. We are doing a stage at body movements. And we will be collaborating in promoting the next night with Eastern Margins who we shared a radio show with a couple of months ago as well. So I think I'm feeling quite empowered by the intersections of community and how we can uplift one another that's very much been part of my goals as an artist to not be just like kind of working within a bubble. And so I think it extends to this project as well. Alim Kheraj How do you make time for yourself? So you don't like, get burnt out? June Lam Very good question. And I've been thinking about that a lot. I was actually speaking on a panel, the fortec Nomade, which is another really amazing non sis male centred clubnight Yeah, they're fab. And we it was a panel about burnout and mental health. And I think like we we all just like there were four of us and we were all just like Well, but and it's like, it's very much like the nature of the industry because of the fact that you have to really just keep promoting something in order for it to, to thrive. And that's a lot of work. And I happen to also have that, you know, an art practice and just a number of different things that I'm doing at any one time. So I think, yeah, I'm also just wondering, like... Alim Kheraj What's your art practice? Or at the moment? June Lam What's my art practice? It shifts a lot. So over the years, I've been involved in quite a lot of different artworks as a performer. I'm a live artist. And I also make collages. I also make sculptures. And I think, yeah, that tends to just shift based on what it is that I'm thinking about, actually, for ADHD in that way, like, I will just like start a new media and because I'm like, the ones that I've used before, I'm really serving me. And I also do facilitation work. And I run like, you know, workshops, which I think is very much a part of my practice, because it informs like, it's like a way of feeding back, like other people's ideas and other people's experiences into the particular area that I'm obsessed with. Yeah. Alim Kheraj Before we go, how would you kind of define a queer space? Oh, my God. Just a light question to finish on. June Lam Yeah, I'm very, I think, um, I think a queer space has to be one that has generated like, with the community, like, I just don't think it's about like, oh, I want to do this. And I'm just gonna, like, I don't know, like, I think you have to, like, because I'm just thinking about that the ways in which like, key is being informed by literally like, what, you know, very much like what the community around me was, like wanting and asking for and needing and the ways in which they responded to like, having a sort of multi more multidisciplinary space. And then the parts of that, that people responded to, I really, like tried to cultivate the things that like I thought that people were leaning into. And I don't really think you can have a queer space without it being like, evolution that evolutionary but like responsive, essentially. Alim Kheraj Great. Well, June, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Yeah, really appreciate you taking the time June Lam So many rapid fire questions. Wow! Alim Kheraj To keep up to date with GGI, you can find them on Instagram @ggi.club (spell it out). You can find June on Instagram @assignedfagatbirth. Queer Spaces: Behind the Scene was born out of a desire to document the importance that queer spaces have to LGBTQ+ people. Each episode is complemented by original photography and portraiture by Tim Boddy. You can find these pictures on queerspaces.uk or on Twitter and Instagram @queerspacesUK. Find out more by subscribing to our newsletter. Queer Spaces is produced, written and edited by Tim Boddy, and hosted and written by me Alim Kheraj. The podcast is supported through a MEAD Fellowship awarded by the University of Arts London.