Tim Boddy Episode 5: Gal Pals Xandice When we first came back, I remember I met someone who said they were 18, they came to every single live... like every single virtual party, and they were from Cornwall, and this was their first club night out ever. And then they were like, This is the best night of my life. Alim Kheraj That's so nice. Xandice Like, how is this... it was just nice to be back in that space of people. But it really kind of just like, emphasised what it meant, like how many people we were reaching, just even internationally as well. Just the response that we got. Alim Kheraj Hello, and welcome to Queer Spaces: Behind She scene, a podcast and photography series where we document contemporary LGBTQ+ spaces and analyse the ever shifting landscape of the UK is queer scene. I'm your host Alim Kheraj. I'm a freelance writer whose work is mainly about the intersection of queerness and popular culture. I'm also the author of Queer London: A guide to LGBTQ+ London past and present. Tim Boddy 0:57 And I'm Tim Boddy, a photographer, artist and picture editor whose work generally centres on the LGBTQ+ community. Alim Kheraj 1:05 Each episode of Queer Spaces: Behind the Scene will feature in-depth conversations with a diverse range of voices behind some pivotal LGBTQ+ groups and spaces. Each episode will be complemented by original photography and portraiture by Tim, which captures the spirit of the community. Alim Kheraj In this episode, Tim and I travelled down to Brighton to meet Scarlett and Xandice, the founders of Gal Pals, which is a queer dance party centering queer women, trans and non binary people, and plays music exclusively by women. We spoke about how Gal Pals was formed, the differences between London and Brighton queer scenes, and the need for experiences specifically for trans people. Alim Kheraj It was interesting going down to Brighton for the chat because that's where I went to university. And we used to go gay clubbing there in the multitude of venues they had. We spent a lot of time in a place called Revenge. Which... have you been to Revenge? Tim Boddy I have been to Revenge! I was a very late bloomer, so I only went to Revenge I think for the first time last year. Which was... I'm gonna say it was 'an experience' Alim Kheraj An experience, yes. Tim Boddy As a person of a certain age as well. Alim Kheraj I think even at 19, I felt like I was too old. And we used to go quite amazingly, after Revenge, because this is what you do when you're at university, we would go to the bar next door, which was called Vavoom. Unfortunately, no longer there, which is, which is very sad. And it was a gay karaoke bar. And we would go and sing karaoke. And there was this guy who was the karaoke host, who loved Alexandra Burke. he just loved Alexandra Burke, and he would play that... What's that song that she did? You know, don't let it start without you. That's kind of like it's got kind of like a tropical... And she's like, 'I'm like a beast', and the guy will just play the song over and over again. And he was insane. It was amazing. But yeah, it stayed open till like six o'clock in the morning or something and then we would go out to the halls. Tim Boddy Yeah, that's quite... You don't see that in London so much. You know? Staying out late, queer nightlife. Alim Kheraj No, and it wasn't really like that in Brighton either. There was just a few places you could go. And this was one of them. But then of course it shut down again. And God it was like one pound for an alcopop? Tim Boddy 2012 was different times. However old you... Alim Kheraj Well. 2009 It was I think it was when we were doing that. Tim Boddy Bless. Yeah, we went to university probably around the same time. So I started in 2007. But I know we talked about this briefly. I wasn't like really properly out at that point. I thought coming to the big city from my leafy Thatcherite wetdream of a suburb would like thrust me to, you know, living my more authentic self, but I wasn't quite ready. Yeah, it just didn't happen. So I was like always skirting around the fringes. So I was like, into sort of nu-rave and indie and all that kind of stuff. And nu-rave in a weird way to me it was like, almost queer coded? Alim Kheraj Yeah I think it's queer coded, it had that kind of makeup-y... Tim Boddy Yeah, like dayglo Alim Kheraj ...flamboyance to it. Tim Boddy Exactly. It's kind of slightly deconstructing, I guess masculinity. Yeah. So it's not like going to a straight club like back in Hertfordshire or whatever it was like, oh, there's like, you know, men wearing very over the top garish kind of gear that I kind of fancy as well. Alim Kheraj Eyeliner. Yeah. Yeah. All the all the boys were like, kind of twinky, Big hair. Tim Boddy Yeah, like tight belts. That kind of thing. Yeah. At the time. Yeah. Very much my type. I was always too scared to approach but it was like a very small baby step in that direction towards I don't know, embracing some kind of aspects of my identity. Yeah, particularly in terms of... yeah, sexuality, and masculinity, and that kind of thing. Yeah, but never kind of really did a full queer clubbing experience in terms of, I don't know, embracing sexuality. Tim Boddy The closest I got was like, really awkward, stilted things like going to these indie clubs, or whatever. And kind of like approaching people like on the dance floor, or whatever. I remember one time when I was at the bar. And I think I was by myself. I lost my friends. And there was someone who fancied at the bar. And it's like, I'm going to buy him a drink. So I bought him a drink. It's like plucked up the courage. I did this! And he was like, "Oh, thank you very much." And then he left and went to his friends. Because it was like a straight environment. Yes, this person is probably straight. But it's just like, it's quite funny looking back on it, and how much I thought about that for like, weeks and months on end, even though it's just a micro kind of thing that happened. It was just like, to me, it was like a big deal. It's really weird looking back. Alim Kheraj Yeah, I remember this. I mean, the scene in Brighton was not really my favourite. It was quite... you know, there's that stereotype of like, mean gays, and that's sort of what I got from it. I know not everyone had that experience. So it's not fair to brush like a whole scene like that. But that was my experience of it at times. Yeah, it was... it was interesting. I was quite... I was probably a little afraid to go to the really like beefy gay bar. Was it called the Bull Dog or something? There was one place up in Kemp Town. That was like for men. I never went. Tim Boddy And still never have. Alim Kheraj I still never have no, in fact, I don't think I've ever... I mean, The Eagle is probably the closest I would say I've been to like, 'man'.. That's not really my scene. Tim Boddy No. me neither so much now. Yeah. Do you think that Brighton has changed a lot since your time at university to where it is now? I know you don't live there. But yeah, what is your perception. Alim Kheraj I think from what I've gathered, it's had the same issue that London has had that lots of places have closed. I also think that there's a little bit of a misunderstanding of it being predominantly gay men, when actually I think it's mainly women and lesbians, queer women, who are the sort of the majority of queer people there, or visibly queer people there. That was definitely even my takeaway back in 2009. I definitely felt that there was more women there. Tim Boddy Yeah, but in terms of space, I guess... Alim Kheraj But yeah the spaces, however, are predominantly marketed towards gay men, but they are filled with women, which was interesting. I guess. It was hard to tell. You know, some people... I would go with a whole bunch of girlfriends. So they could be just with like, the gay from their halls. You know, like, like I was. Yeah. I mean, I haven't been out clubbing in Brighton for since my friend's hen party, which was in 2019. Not even a hen party. My god it was her wedding. I don't really remember. Tim Boddy Maybe for the best. Xandice My name is Xandice, I use they/them pronouns. I actually also use he pronouns too, that's a new one. I'm a DJ and a web developer. I've been DJing for about eight or nine years. Yeah, that's... that's pretty much me too. Scarlett I'm Scarlett. My pronouns are she/her. I'm a queer femme woman, co founder of Gal Pals. I also DJ and occasionally take photographs. Alim Kheraj And how did you two meet? Xandice We met at pride - at Brighton Pride - nearly seven years ago. And it was just one of those moments - I saw Scarlet in, like, the pub garden of The Marlborough, which is now called The Actors. And everything was closing down, it was the end of the night, and there wasn't anywhere to go. And it's Pride - and it was like, well, there's no club nights, or there's nothing going on. And I just saw her and I was like, "Oh my gosh, there's this girl. And I really fancy her and oh my gosh, she's looking at... she's walking this way!" It was just, like, terrifying. But she walked up to me and said "Do you remember me?" And I said "Yeah, of course." But I did not... Remember [laughter] Scarlett Technically the first time we met was at a Twin Peaks-themed club night but Xandice doesn't remember. So we count our first meeting being at Brighton Pride. And then yeah, the rest is like history I guess. Xandice Yeah. And we ended up going to Clam Jam at Dalston Superstore a couple of weeks later, and just... because she lived in London at the time, yeah, that was it. Like we had that that evening. And then that... that was the beginning. Alim Kheraj Inseparable ever since Xandice Pretty much! Alim Kheraj So Gal Pals was started in 2015. Is that right? Scarlett Yeah. Alim Kheraj What led to you to start the parties? Scarlett So I started the party when I was working at a Students Union and we were planning Freshers Week. And I wanted to do a party that was like, for queer women really. And just something that wasn't like the mainstream freshers parties where they play like, you know, really, commercial music. And it's not like a safe space. So yeah, I had this idea to do this little party me and Xandice just started dating. And I asked them what I should call it and they said, Gal Pals. And then yeah, sort of got Xandice involved. And that first year, it was just like an event just for like students, like University of the Arts, London. And then because it went so well, we decided to like make it into an actual thing for like, the general public. And... Xandice Yeah, I think when we did it at Dalston Superstore that first time, I was like, that was amazing. Why don't we have this in Brighton? So then we just thought like, let's find somewhere else to do it here and just try that. And then it was like, naturally evolved into a Brighton/London affair, to be honest. Alim Kheraj Yeah. What were those early parties, like? Xandice I feel like probably quite chaotic [laughter]. We weren't event planners or anything. It was... the first time I DJ'd for five hours. Which is, which is definitely a test but it was so so fun. Just everyone was so up for it. And you could really tell; like, no-one had been in a space like that before. Scarlett It was really exciting. I feel like there wasn't really anything at that time. Like for people who are not men. Like... because after that started... quite a few nights did pop up, but around that time there really wasn't anything and there was like a huge like reception to it. So that was cool. But it was obviously... it was in Dalston Superstore which is a tiny venue. So it was always completely packed, like really chaotic. Like yeah, we had... Alim Kheraj It's so hot in Dalston Superstore... Xandice That! You had like a queue just the whole way down the street to the end of the road? Like it was ridiculous. Scarlett Obviously not enough toilets. It was probably really like not that great, I guess, for the guests! But obviously, there wasn't really much else. And people were just... Xandice People, you know, that's the thing. We're always like... we kind of always have this thing of like why are we always shoved into the basements into the like, the attic spaces. But that's just... people appreciate it anyway, because we just like need these spaces. So Scarlett Yeah, and it's a whole different story now. Now we know what we're doing Alim Kheraj What was behind... was the idea to do it in Brighton? Just because you were based here, and you thought this was something that this area can need to? Xandice Yeah, like I lived here. We were sort of long distance because Scarlett was in London, and I was DJing like pubs and stuff. There were a couple of nights that were quite sporadic, but they're really... considering like Brighton is like the LGBTQ capital of the UK. It just felt like this is something that we need here and that it would serve so many people. And I just thought "it can't be that hard". I'm sure someone... if we had the reception we had in London like people would definitely be up for it in Brighton. So that first one was again really successful. It was just... I think we did lots of kind of, like, themed kind of nights at the beginning. So we would have like artwork that was like Heaven is a Place on Earth. Do you remember we did that one that was, like, the Black Mirror theme, and just kind of like tapping into queer pop culture and like Zeitgeisty stuff to get people to come along. Scarlett Yeah, it was very like DIY at the beginning. We did everything ourselves. Like I would make the artwork. I did all the photography - the clubnight photography, Xandice as DJ, and yeah, Xandice We just didn't think about it. So I don't know, we just kind of like pulled it together. Scarlett Well, when you're starting something you don't really have like any funds to like pay people to do it. So you kind of have to start off doing yourselves, and then you can get more people involved. But I think that's why it started off that way. Right? Xandice Yeah, definitely. Alim Kheraj Did you notice a difference between the kind of crowd or the vibe between London and Brighton? Xandice Maybe not originally. But now, we always think that there's a slight difference in the crowd, but it kind of goes in and out. Scarlett Yeah, I used to think that people in London were a bit more like, restrained. Yeah. And people in Brighton would let go a bit more? It would be really quite crazy and like, feral. Now you get that in London a bit more. Xandice I feel like London energy is extremely horny at the moment. And it just feels like that is... that's what's happening in London, and then in Brighton... Brighton is still very like euphoric, very, like hands in the air, like, shirts off. Scarlett I don't know if the reason why the London ones didn't used to be like that is because of the venue. Because now we have a really good venue where you can actually see everyone. Whereas before it was kind of like; there was different rooms, so we couldn't actually see the whole dance floor, and they couldn't all see us. But now we're on like a big stage in one room and Xandice You can cultivate that atmosphere. It's very similar to the one in Brighton, so maybe that's... that's come across now? As like a consistent thing. That you're gonna get this horny euphoria [laughter]. Alim Kheraj Post-COVID horniness [more laughter]. Alim Kheraj The decision to play music exclusively by women. Was that just because you wanted to... I don't know, not just have like top 40 stuff that... Can you talk me through a little bit about that decision? Xandice I mean, when I met Scarlett, she just only listened to music by women. Like it's something I noticed quite like soon after we started dating but, and I just... I mentioned it once. She was like "oh, yeah, I guess so." And that was it. I just feel like it wasn't very hard for us to put together a playlist or set lists of music that was just like bangers by women. And like, over the years we've really realised like top 40 or, or outside of the top 40; There's just so many... so much good music is made by women, so much popular music is made by women. And it's yeah, just it's just fun. So yeah. Scarlett I think it also came from the fact that when I was at uni, I was like, one of the presidents of the feminist society and we put on like a gig, and I put together like the playlist to put in between the bands. And that was like all music by women. And that is probably what started Gal Pals, was like putting on that gig and that like event and stuff. So yeah, I think it came from like a feminist angle. Yeah. Yeah. Alim Kheraj Women do make the best pop stars. They make the best pop music. Xandice Yes. Alim Kheraj I basically only listen to, like, girls, gays, and theys. Scarlett Yeah. The only man I ever want to play is like Lil Nas X. Alim Kheraj Controversial question, but is there one you prefer between London and Brighton? Xandice Oh my gosh. Oh, that's hard. I don't actually think there is because we have some really close friends who used to live in Brighton and they moved to London. And they pretty much come to all of them. If they... if they're not able to make it, that kind of like makes it feel maybe not as good or we're a bit sad about not seeing them. But I feel like that... I don't know. I guess it's not about the audience or anything. It's really about like, the people? And the people that we do Gal Pals with. That's the only thing I feel like that there's a shift for me, really. Xandice I think I used to prefer Brighton, but now I'm like they're equal because the London venue is so good. And I feel like we were a bit let down with our previous venues. Xandice That's a good point. Scarlett So now I'm like they're the same. Xandice Yeah, your answer is good. We have a brilliant venue. We have brilliant venues, in fact. That's actually a really good point that you raised because the Komedia has always been incredible for access. They've always been really accommodating in terms of our like, policies, entry requirements and things. And they just got really on board with training, security and everything. And because we were able to deliver that in Brighton, it always felt like we were letting our audience down in London not being able to have the same access. Because it was so... just so difficult for us to find any venue, that was accessible in London. Alim Kheraj It is really hard in London, I think people don't realise how difficult it is finding accessible spaces, especially for queer spaces, as you say, because we're always in the attic, the basement. Xandice Yeah that's it. And then you might find somewhere, but then it just might have people on the door who just aren't accommodating, aren't willing to, you know, treat your guests like with the respect that they deserve and things. It's just always something that was being let down. But where we've landed now, we are so happy because it feels like exactly equal in terms of like facilities and stuff. Scarlett Yeah, it's a great venue, and the staff are really great. And like, we'll give them briefings at the beginning of the night on our policies on like, you know, not gendering people and all of that stuff. And, yeah, they'll get all the staff in one room and like, Yeah, Xandice They'll be like... Yeah, it's great. They're really on our side. We're all on the same team. So it's just really nice to be reading from the same hymn sheet. Alim Kheraj What's the space in London? Xandice Lafayette? In Kings Cross. Yeah, so just, it's very new. Alim Kheraj I think I went to see Charlie xcx play there. Scarlett Yeah! We were there. It was so amazing. Alim Kheraj It was. That show... Xandice Brilliant show. Alim Kheraj It felt like all the pent up lockdown energy was released. For an album that was all about having pent up lockdown energy. Xandice Yes, honestly, even thinking about I'm just getting goosebumps... Scarlett I honestly was like crying at that gig. That was my first gig back post... Alim Kheraj I think it was mine to... Scarlett ...COVID. And that album. Like Charli's my favourite, like musician, and that album, like we played it so much during all our virtual parties. So it's like really... It's got like a really special place in my heart. And just seeing it performed live. I just like oh my god. Xandice Yeah it was emotional. Alim Kheraj So you mentioned the virtual parties. So that was something that you guys did during the pandemic? Scarlett Yeah, yeah. Alim Kheraj What was that, like? Xandice It was the thing that kind of kept us going to be honest, for I think, a couple of months, we did them every two weeks. And knowing that you had something to look forward to on Saturday, like a reason to just like put the disco lights on, and get the bubble machine out, and get dressed up and then get to see all your friends and all the regulars who'd come to like Brighton or London, on Zoom. It was nice, because it felt like we were much closer to people than we would normally be able to be in a club, because we could just chat to them on the chat. We could just like have like conversations at the end of the night, we would just let everyone put their mics on. And we'd all have like a little chat. And it was just, you felt like you're in community again, when we really felt like, so distanced from, and separated from communities at that time. It was a really, really special kind of time to be honest. Yeah, is definitely the best... one of the best things during that whole time to be honest. Yeah. Alim Kheraj Have you incorporated that kind of digital aspect into... once you've come back? Xandice Well our first parties last year, we did some streaming. But again, it's the facilities that we have at the Komedia, they... wasn't really suitable. It's definitely something I want to explore. But I think we'd need to like basically recruit, to get another person just to manage that. Because there's so many different aspects of the night that need managing. Yeah. It was quite difficult in terms of like, just logistically, yeah. It's something I know that a lot of people found really, really useful, really, really helpful, and just help them to get through that difficult time. When we first came back, I remember I met someone who said they were 18, they came to every single live... like every single virtual party, and they were from Cornwall, and this was their first club night out ever. And then they were like, This is the best night of my life. Alim Kheraj That's so nice. Xandice Like, how is this... it was just nice to be back in that space of people. But it really kind of just like, emphasised what it meant, like how many people we were reaching, just even internationally as well. Just the response that we got. Scarlett Yeah, we had people from all over the world come. So that was really cool. Yeah. And people who maybe wouldn't feel comfortable coming to like the actual club. Maybe they don't know any other queer people and this feels like a bit of a safer like gateway. So that was really cool. So yeah, there was lots of good things about it. They were great. Xandice Yeah. Just the opportunity to like go to the club in your bedroom. In like, what is your safe space. If you're back at home, like I don't know, maybe you've been pushed back into the closet, that kind of thing. You could just put your headphones on and join this party and feel like part of a community again. Scarlett Yeah, I think people really appreciate it. We've got so many messages and yeah. Alim Kheraj Ah Lockdown. Scarlett Almost makes me nostalgic. It's kind of weird. Alim Kheraj It's terrible. But that first one because it was such a novelty I do sometimes think; was it that bad? I mean, it obviously it was terrible, and what was going on in the world was awful. But; there was part of me that looks back on it now and I think maybe it was okay. Xandice I think there are, there are things that came out of it that are really good. Yeah. And like I said, like, I mean, even if I just think about some of the, like... if you think about like Queer House Party that came out of the pandemic, you just think about the way that people have been, you know, forced to expand access to these kind of spaces, because of not being able to be in person like physically with people. So there is like a definitely a lasting impact and legacy. It's just how we carry that through, I guess, into like this sort of post-pandemic time. Alim Kheraj What's interesting is through researching this podcast, and my book that I did, I noticed that while there used to be more lesbian bars and clubs, they were always in the minority. And it seems like this is a historical issue, one that isn't just specific to the UK, either, like why do you think that there is this systemic issue when it comes to spaces for queer women? And you know, I think now, you know, when I look when I was doing the research, it was the sort of 1970s we didn't really have terms like non binary, or people did have them, but they were very medicalised. Yeah, why do you think that there is this systemic issue? Xandice I think there are a lot of reasons. You know, you could cite... it's just really like about power and money, and who has that within society? And it's also about just the way... if we think about London, specifically, it's the way that what is prioritised, government funding, like in terms of arts and culture are what is. I don't know, I just feel like there's just this culture of trying to shut down fun. And that means that those spaces... that's just across the board for queer spaces, but then if you think about marginalised communities within those, those queer spaces, they're going to experience that on an even larger scale. Yeah, I just think that if you are part of lesbian or queer women communities, then you will make those spaces, but you can't rely on other people to be making them for you. They're not going to prioritise you, it's just... just how things work. So if you, you know, don't know, if you don't have those people in control, or in power, or owning places, or managing places, then they're not going to create that space. Scarlett I feel like, probably before I started going out there was maybe... I feel like there was a time when people were like, okay, things are okay now, like, with like, queer, acceptance? And they were like, "Oh, we just will all go to like, the same places, you know, we don't need our own spaces." And I feel like over the last like, five to 10 years, or maybe like, last five years, people have been: "Actually we do need our own spaces" and like, have been trying to build those spaces again. Because I feel like I've seen that with like, The Chateau with, like the London LGBTQ+ Community Centre, where like, actually we need these spaces? But people maybe didn't think that they did. And now, yeah. Xandice Yeah. And I think it's, it's the thing as well of people making do with the resource that they have. So if that means that we can't have a brick and mortar place, we will do a pop-up, so that there are like ephemeral spaces that people can, can go and experience that. And that is more accessible, it's easier to do that, like one offs, it doesn't take as much money or time or resource or effort to just maintain. And you can, you know, apply it to different places. So you can pick it up and you can move it somewhere else where it where the need is. I think a lot of people have been doing that in place of actually having access to capital to be able to set up anything permanent. Really, that's kind of what seems like in the last five years. Alim Kheraj And, you know, there's obviously this dearth of physical space, as you mentioned, your brick and mortar. How do you think that the sort of G and some of B community can counter that? The lack of physical spaces there are for queer women for non binary people, for trans people; because, you know, for example, in London, there's one physical lesbian bar, I think there was an article in The New York Times about how there's only a handful of lesbian bars left in the whole of the United States, you know, things like that. Xandice Honestly, I just feel like if you're in any kind of position of power/influence that you own venues, you run venues, you manage venues; bring in people from those communities, if you care about actually creating spaces for them, handover some of that power, give them the opportunity to create that space and cultivate it. Don't expect yourself to have the expertise to know how to do that. And don't just like, grow your influence, and just do the same thing over and over again, but just lots different places like you give it to someone else, like let us have our spaces too, if people do care about that. Because largely, unfortunately, people... people are self serving, and they will do the things that they are familiar with, and that serve them and their interests. So if they're not part of the communities that aren't being represented, they're less likely to be trying to help those communities. But they don't have to do that, they can actually hand over the reins as well. I feel like that's the only thing really just passing on some of that power. Alim Kheraj We'd love to hear from you. Tweet us @queerspacesUK, message us on Instagram at queerspacesUK, or email us at Tim@queerspaces.uk. And let us know about your favourite queer spaces, how you feel about the evolution of the LGBTQ+ scene. And don't forget to rate, leave a review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps us. Alim Kheraj Do you think brick and mortar spaces are still necessary? In that, as you know, permanent space is still necessary? Xandice Yes. 100%. Especially... if I think about Brighton, like how much we would... how much we would benefit from having permanent spaces. It's just like I mentioned it being like the LGBTQ capital of the UK, a lot of people move here because of that. There's just like such a high percentage or proportion of LGBT people. And we still don't actually have... like, we've got a community centre that's being you know, built. Like now I popped into it today, they're still painting and decorating, but they they need another 500 million... 500 million? No, that's a lot of money. Oh, wait, hold up. No, they need another half a million pounds to actually finish their development. And they don't know where that's going to come from. But there's... it's really aspirational plans for what they want to do with the space. And it's a fantastic space. But why... Why isn't it developed? Yeah. And why is it taking this long for it to appear? Scarlett We have like one queer like pub. And even that is like not owned by queer people. It's owned by like, you know, one of those pub companies? Yeah. Alim Kheraj Pub conglomerates. Scarlett Yeah. Yeah. And Xandice it's not accessible in the way that it should be. It's... Scarlett It's great that it is there. Because like, it's full of, you know, it's been where people will go. And it's lovely when you go there and you see people who you know. And it was shut through like... it only reopened recently, like, the last six months. Xandice But why do we have one? Yeah. It's Brighton. We need these spaces, you need the ability to be able to go somewhere and just like, relax and just know you're going to bump into people like you, people who are you know... it's a safe space that genuinely is, you just you take off your, your armour? Yeah. And you just like, you can be at ease. And you can't just have like one or two of those spaces. We need more. Because, unfortunately, it isn't that easy to just walk into somewhere and know that you're going to be safe. Still. It's that's just not the case. It's more likely in those spaces. So Alim Kheraj Yeah, I was always surprised when I went to university in Brighton by how few spaces there were considering it has always been touted as this queer capital of the country. And yet, it never felt that way. Even though I was here. Yes. Which is always confusing to me. Lots of queer people, but not often specific spaces for them to go to, especially if you were not a cis white man. Xandice Yeah. I've had a lot of conversations with people about that. And I think some people for some time felt like, mostly probably because they were cis, gay, white men, that they didn't need to... they could go anywhere. And it's like, well, you've been allowed access to that world where the world is safe for you because it's built for people like you. But there are still so many people who aren't being served by that. So there was like, maybe less incentive or impetus to actually even like, I don't know, frequent spaces. And they shut down or to build those kinds of spaces. It's like, let's just go here, we can go here, we can go there. But not everyone can. And I think there was just like a very long period of that, which has meant like, even less spaces. Alim Kheraj Yeah. Have you noticed that there has been a shift in the number of spaces? Like have there been, like the rest of the country, lots of closures and things like that? Xandice Definitely in London, yeah. What I feel is there's more... there's a void. And even if... I don't know really what could fill it at this point, if maybe The Ledward Centre was funded, then that would be a huge, a huge asset to the community. That if we just had a few more like, pubs, few more cafes, few more like queer bookshops, like places like that. I think that's the void that I feel. And I think other people in our communities are feeling? I don't know, what do you think? Scarlett Um, there are like spaces aren't there, but they don't feel safe. They feel like, kind of just, I don't know, like, yeah, maybe there's kind of this... for white gay men. And then when you go to them as well, it is kind of this attitude of like, oh, it's not actually a gay space. It's like for everyone. Because they, they don't want it to be seen as like an exclusive space. And it's like, why not? They don't want to be seen as exclusionary. But it's like, actually, no, it's not like we need these spaces. Like, straight cis people can go anywhere. So that's why we have these spaces. So it is okay for it to be, for you to say it's a queer space, or gay space, or LGBT space. Xandice Yeah, that's it. As people's understanding of, of what makes somewhere inclusive or not. Saying something is for someone doesn't mean that some people can't come, it's like, you now need to consider whether you should be taking up that space, you can go anywhere else do you need to be in that space? It doesn't mean that it's the law, you're not allowed anymore. It doesn't say anything about your venue that you shouldn't. I don't know if it's, it comes from a very weird a similar assimilation, kind of like, almost I don't know, internalised homophobia, kind of thing of like, we don't we can just be like you, we don't have to have this. And it's like, like Scarlett says, we do have to have these spaces. And you can say that with your whole chest. That's fine. It's... it's good. It brings the right people in, you know. Yeah. When we're talking specifically from a very specific experience that we had, which was just really, really bad. Alim Kheraj In Brighton? Xandice Yeah, yeah. Scarlett Where it was also because... yeah. I mean, it just shows that those spaces are not safe for everyone. Xandice We went to a night at a pub, and we had a really, really good time. There was a... like a cabaret. I don't normally like cabaret, specifically, because I just had so much grief in spaces with people doing cabaret, kind of like old style, drag. Just like racism, basically. And so I've just avoided those spaces. But we had a really good night. And then at the end of the night, we were just asking, like, "has this place always been a queer... has this pub always been a queer pub?" And that was just... it just went left from there. Because they just refused to say that it was... "it's not a queer pub. It's it's just a pub!" Scarlett Even though it has a huge rainbow flag on the ceiling! And gay cabaret and drag, like, Xandice Yeah, this is a gay pub. I don't know why they didn't want to own... that they don't want to claim it. Alim Kheraj Concerned it might hurt business? Or... Xandice It clearly doesn't because they had... they have plenty of straight people who are really enjoying themselves in there. Scarlett Yeah. But then they just... said something really racist. So it's just like, Xandice This isn't a safe space. Because this person thought that they... they thought that they were being so like, inclusive or open to everyone. They just weren't, they'd gone the complete opposite direction. And then they ended up isolating us, me specifically. And I'll never step foot in there again. You know? So it's just like, such a shame. And it just again, was just like, "Can we just not have a nice place? Can we not... I just want to go somewhere." And that just doesn't happen. You know, you have a good night and you go home, you don't then just like have to deal with someone who doesn't even understand the importance of the space that they're creating. Those kinds of people have the power, those kinds of people are in control of what happens in the space. What happens in the venue. If you have a lot of people who who have that kind of I don't know, who are thinking in that way. Running, owning and managing venues. What's the experience of the guests? Where does anyone go? And like they're not going to have something like bad happened to them, and then they're just going to be like, pushed out like, "No, you're the one in the wrong", you know? It just sets the tone. So yeah. Alim Kheraj That was always one of the problems I had going to venues in Brighton is I never felt... or I never always felt welcome. It didn't always feel hospitable because you want a certain type of perso,n you didn't look a certain type of way, people would make fun of my name. And when I showed my ID and things like that. You sort of think, okay. And I'm, you know, quite relatively privileged. And sort of thinking, you who are the spaces for? If they're not for us. Xandice Yeah. It's like, You're a guest. Like, we're allowing you in here, rather than like we're welcoming you in because it's for you. And like, there is a very big difference in when you like, step through a threshold of place, and you immediately feel because of the people in there. Yeah, the people that you see, and the way that they respond to things. And yeah, we don't have enough of that. I just think there is a void of that. There can always be more. I don't actually think there could be enough. But there can always be more. Alim Kheraj There has been, I think you mentioned after Gal Pals started, there's been this growth of club nights and pop up spaces specifically for queer women, trans, non binary people, and gender non-conforming people. How do you see Gal Pals sort of fitting into that movement? Xandice I think just from where we started, it was always going to be... we always were centering these like marginalised experiences. And then I think as well as, like, we've grown like, like, I feel like I've grown with Gal Pals personally, like, as... I'm trans, I'm trans masculine. And it was clear, like, as I started, like, socially and physically transitioning, it was like, I'm no longer a girl. So... so how does this night that I run that with my partner, how do I create space, like a space in that space? That is still for me, people like me. And I feel like it's really nice that we are both from different, like communities that Gal Pals serves, because it then is like, very clear, this is for you too. Actually try to make that as clear as possible. And I think that's really where we've kind of evolved. Scarlett Because I think at the beginning, people were like, Oh, it's a lesbian night. And like, I mean, obviously, that is like a huge part of our community. But it isn't just for like lesbians. And yeah, we obviously really want, like trans and non binary people to feel like it's a space for them to and like it, definitely... It definitely is, like that has happened. Like you can tell by the people who come. Xandice Yeah. It's so nice how many people message us and say "I came to Gal Pals as my true self for the first time, and I had the best night" or it was some somewhere, I thought I could do that. And I came with all my friends. And we just get that so much. And you can tell that it's really important that as soon as someone is greeted, is welcomed at the front door, that's the beginning of the night. And so if that goes wrong, then that's going to shape or paint their night. And we've really tried to refine that process so that nothing happens from the minute that you know, enter the threshold. There's only so much, there's only so much that you can control. But I think that that the way that you meet people at the front door is something that's really important. Scarlett Yeah, we never wanted to have like, a door policy where we like... we've always said anyone can come to Gal Pals, but this is a space centering like women, trans and non binary people. So like, if you're not from those communities, please like consider like, why you're coming the space you're taking up like that kind of thing. But we're not going to police at the door because that's just like really, like, fraught with so many issues. And I think would make people feel like quite stressed about coming like, Oh, they're gonna think that I'm like... Xandice ...like, I'm not part of these groups. Xandice not trans enough, not femme enough... Xandice Yeah, all of those. Yeah, that it's not for you. And it's more that... I feel like queer people as a just like a, you know, I feel like we I feel like queer people spend a lot of time thinking about "am I enough?" Whereas cis, straight people are not spending enough time thinking about "Should I be there?" They're not... they're not thinking, well, that's actually the division. It's not whether the space is for me or not. It's like no, cis people, cis straight people, can we stop taking up the space? You need to think about why you're going somewhere. That's it. Alim Kheraj They don't consider I don't think, there's not even a thought. Xandice The balance in consideration is off. Don't think about it; "You are enough, come. You? Maybe think of going somewhere else." Alim Kheraj I think that's because you spend your whole time growing up or as a teenager or young adult thinking "I'm not welcoming that space, because it's not for me." And then when you do have spaces like Gal Aps you still think "Am I welcome in that space, is it for me?" Rather than than knowing it's not you still think: "Should I be there?" And that I think is a learned behaviour that you just don't, perhaps ever get out of? Xandice Yeah, yeah. Scarlett Yeah, I think if we were having like loads of men coming through the space, then we would have to think differently. But that doesn't really happen. Alim Kheraj Xandice, you have started another night right, called Transome? Xandice I have. I've started another night, that is centering and celebrating trans people. And fundraising for gender affirming access to healthcare, essentially, because of the very long NHS waiting lists, and very expensive private health care funds, the costs. I personally did a fundraiser last year for top surgery and the communities came through in like a way I could have never imagined. So I just thought, "What's the best way for me to be able to give back and to help people to access my platform?" And what can I do is I can run a party, I can I can DJ. And I just thought, let me do that. Because I saw so many other people who have been able to fundraise, giving back using their skills. And I just, that was the best way for me to be able to do that, I guess. And we did the first one on Friday. And it was incredible. That yeah, went off without a hitch. And I'm just really excited to grow it. And to help even more people access, just healthcare because it's just, it's really, really terrible time. Personally, I waited six years. And that's when I kind of got away to my, to my limit, essentially. And I just thought I have to do something. And I was really lucky, because people responded, and then just... I don't want anyone to have to feel like that anymore. Scarlett And that's six years after thinking about it for like, 10 Xandice Oh, yeah, I've been thinking about it for a really long time. But yeah, it just... Alim Kheraj It's unacceptable really. Xandice It is, it really is. And it, it more than breaks my heart that anyone isn't able to access it because of waiting lists or because of not knowing enough people or anything, it shouldn't have to be a popularity contest to be able to feel right in your body. We shouldn't have to fundraise at all, I would love to be able to rely on the NHS, because I believe in the NHS. But I also believe in trans people and our right to live - to live - and to live long, happy lives. And if this means someone is able to access that, and, you know, to feel right in themselves. That's... that's the point. That's the point of the night, that's all I want is to help individuals like one at a time, each person is as important as, as reaching as many people as possible. And yeah, the the idea is to, to work with another organisation that started recently to help with fundraising. So we're going to collaborate. And also just highlight as well, fundraisers so people will be able to apply and some people will get funding, but also will highlight and promote all of those fundraisers so that people can access them. Yeah, we'll just go from there. Basically. Alim Kheraj It sounds great. Will you take that up to London as well? Or do you think you're going to centre it mainly in Brighton, or is it just too much work to consider thinking about doing two different club nights in two different cities?! Xandice Yeah, I've realised this year there are only so many weekends. Unfortunately! We should consider moving to a three or four day week and then there would be more weekend. Alim Kheraj Yes, I agree. Xandice But in the meantime, it's going to be a Brighton and Hove/East Sussex, like local affair, just to keep things manageable. For now. It might be that I'm able to help get other people running them across the country in the future. But for now, I'm just happy with each individual person that we're able to, to get closer to their to their goal. Yeah one party at a time. Alim Kheraj And what about you Scarlett, what do you do outside of Gal Pals? Scarlett So I work part time for an LGBTQ charity called Switchboard in Brighton, and yeah, do their communications and social media and things like that. And then yeah, I do some... I'm trying to get back into doing photography and I run Gal Pals. Alim Kheraj What do you do... because you mentioned there's only so many weekends. There's only so many weekends in a month and, how do you take time for yourself outside of planning and organising? Do you take time?! Xandice It feels like less so recently, but we actually go out. We like to go out. We'll plan to go to London. Go out with our friends. We go to Butch Please. We go to Pxssy Palace. Like we liked that we want to be in those spaces too. It's really nice to go out and not plan the night. Like that's just a really... it's just really nice to... Scarlett Yeah I think because we run a club night, like we're interested club culture, and we want to go to other things. So yeah, we go out for fun like... we both obviously love music. That's why we DJ. So we like to go to gigs and stuff like that. Going to festivals, going to Primavera. Alim Kheraj Oh, same Xandice The second weekend. Yeah, yes. The gay weekend. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. I don't know. Like, what else do we do to Scarlett Go to the gym? I do pole dancing. Fun. So... Alim Kheraj Have there been any nights you've been to recently? Or that you're kind of... new nights that you think oh, wow, this is amazing. Xandice Yeah, I've been to Polyglamorous, which is another night in Brighton. I'm DJing there next month, which I'm really excited about. That's like really cool. Because it's just so good to have more queer parties. We just always need more. It's not as hard to put on a party, as it might seem. Like I said, it's more accessible to do a pop up space. What other nights we looking forward to? I think we're gonna go to Big Dyke Energy for the first time. Yeah, yeah, it's next week, which we're really excited about. Scarlett Um, yeah, I've been to a few Crossbreeds recently, which is like a queer... it's a queer rave and like a sex party. Yeah. That's fun. And also, like, it's really cool to see the way that they do, like, they're safer spaces, like policies, because of it being like, like a kink BDSM, like space, it's like, so important to kind of have... make sure it's like a safe space. And they have like rules. And they like, ask you on the door, like, what the rules are of the party to make sure that you like, understand why you're there. And, you know, if you're like, in a straight passing couple, they'll like, maybe say, ask you more questions about why you're there and like to really understand, like, make sure you really understand the space. And yeah, because we have a Gal Pals, like our Pin Pals, who like kind of just help us on the night to make sure that everything that's happening is you know, there's no like harassment or anything. And they have like their armband wearers who do that - but a bit more intense... Xandice A little more active. Alim Kheraj Roaming around the space while people are doing certain things. Scarlett Yeah so just, you know, make sure everything is like, consensual and yeah Xandice Just I guess, like, not using... like enforcing the rules, just making sure that people are like, you know, just doing okay. Scarlett Yeah. I guess because they're a bit like risky... I guess, activities, you have to have more.... Xandice More of a presence. Scarlett Yeah. And that's just... that's kind of been, like, interesting to see what they do. Xandice I think when you describe it to me, it seems like Safer Space policies within clubs spaces, was kind of born from kink spaces. Like it seems like they've always... they've been pioneering, they've had to do that. So you can learn a lot from people who do that well. And that can translate very well into nightclub spaces. These are queer spaces a lot of the time; why is it just queer spaces? That's my question - that care about those guests, that care about the people who go to the parties? There is none of this happening in a straight club! Alim Kheraj Arguably probably should really be happening Xandice 100% should be happening! Like that is... So the way that we spend our time we do not go to straight clubs. Alim Kheraj And what about Gal Pals; how would you like to see things grow and develop? Scarlett Well, we've been talking for a long time about doing parties in other cities, because people always asking us to. And we would really like to but like Xandice says there's only so many weekends in the year, and setting something up in a new city is like a lot more work. So, I do really want to. I think maybe for like prides like we might do like a couple of events. And then I just... keep on like doing the parties that we're doing and making sure they're as good as they can be. Xandice I think the thing is, well, it'd be great to do some prides. We always were like, oh, let's do Gal Pals on tour. We can't even drive. It's not possible in that kind of way. But if you want us to come to your city like message us. If you're like a promoter or like a venue owner or anything, we can probably make something work. It's when we know that there is a community ready waiting for us that it's a lot easier to put something on. And there will always be someone who wants to come to a Gal Pals wherever you are. So we'd love to do more of that, I think. Yeah. Alim Kheraj And my last question before we go partways. What defines a queer space for you? Xandice That's big a question. Hmm. Scarlett Yeah, I wasn't sure. When I read this in the list I was like "Ooo! I don't know how to answer this" Alim Kheraj You might not have an answer. I don't actually even know if I know what I would define a queer space aside from the people. And even that doesn't necessarily mean Scarlett I guess I would say a queer space is like, designed with that intentionality, you know, and hopefully, they will have thought about some of the issues that queer people experience and how they're going to deal with that in the space. Yeah. So yeah, you would expect them to be thinking about how to make it a safer space, like think about accessibility, because so many, like LGBTQ people have disabilities. Xandice I feel like the perspective you're coming at it from as well as like, if you own or manage that space, and it's like permanent, because I feel like queer spaces are also like the people. And if you have enough queer people in one space, that becomes a queer space. Yeah. So then there's less rules. There's less like control over it, but it really is about who is in that space that makes it queer. Scarlett Yeah I mean, you can take over any space and make it queer. Like, I remember they used to do the Queer Picnic in like, was it Burgess Park in London? And that was just like, you know, just a random park in London and everyone would just come together and just like, I don't know, it was like a mini pride. It was so nice. Xandice So nice. I feel like anywhere can be a queer space with the right people in it. Alim Kheraj Great, well, Xandice and Scarlett, thank you so much for joining us. Xandice Thank you, Alan. Tim Boddy Yeah, thank you, that was great. Scarlett Yeah, hope that was okay. Tim Boddy That was a nice note to end on, like any space can be queer. Xandice When you were saying... you were talking about how you design a space, I was just thinking about the first time I was in a space with like... I went to a Tegan and Sara concert. And I've never seen so many gays, gay women in one space. I was like, where did you come from? Alim Kheraj Where are you literally... where are you? Xandice Now the Roundhouse is a queer space - that we are the majority here. Like I saw one - one, man. I think I was with him. I was Rob! Me and Rob. I was just like, this is so wild. But now this is "Where are you all going?" You know, I don't know. I was very young. And it was just really, like, it just really stuck with me. Xandice It's funny when you have this big concentration of people, and then they will disappear. And you're like, Well, where do you go to go? Where do you go? How is there so many of you right here, that I never see any of you? Xandice The temporality. This also actually is a thing like with the Charli gig. Yeah, that was like very like Alim Kheraj It was just like all the gays Xandice All of the gays! Yeah, we saw so many people who come Gal Pals there. Just like, oh seen you before, seen you before! Yeah, I don't know. What the fuck is a queer space. It's good question. Alim Kheraj To keep up with Gal Pals and find the dates for their next parties, you can find them on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at gal pals club, as well as that their website gal pals dot club for more information about transom visit at transom club on Instagram. Queer Spaces: Behind the Scene was born out of a desire to document the importance that queer spaces have to LGBTQ+ people. Each episode is complemented by original photography and portraiture by Tim Boddy. You can find these pictures on queerspaces.uk or on Twitter and Instagram @queerspacesUK. Find out more by subscribing to our newsletter. Queer Spaces is produced, written and edited by Tim Boddy, and hosted and written by me Alan Kheraj. The podcast is supported through a MEAD Fellowship awarded by the University of Arts London.